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dai



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My own feelings about this go along with all my other sentiments about piercing the body for non-medical reasons : the same sort of feelings which I have about dental treatment ... But my own sentiments about my own body inform my consent as to what is done to it : whilst I think that non-medical incursions into the body are stupid I have to debate my periodic recourse to cigarettes given the harm which they do ... is my smoking self-medication - after all approved medications often carry horrendous risks - and what about my regularly weaning myself off each bout of sucking smoke into my lungs by grinding dry bay leaves between my teeth because they produce a similar ash-tray like taste i.e. contain cyanide ... Cyanide is in the fruit and veg which The Demockerats want us to eat - and they prefer us to buy this from Spain and other places from where they are brought by airplane yet they claim to object to pollution and yet the airports are over-loaded bringing in flowers from pesticide soaked fields seized from local farmers by corrupt governments on behalf of transnational corporations which pay no taxes whilst our own farmers pay taxes and thus go bankrupt and ...

... Anyhow if the risks are born only by those who choose to do something then I would count our relationships with ourselves as not subject to The Rule of Law which can only be justified by our collective interventions to mutually protect each other from non-consenting relationships ... So.: what really matters is whether a person is capable of giving consent - which a baby can not ... in terms of any religion ( as opposed to the corruption of religion practised by The Hierocrats who mutilate children's bodies and minds in order to brand them as their property ) it is surely a contradiction to the genuine religious practice of engaging with the collectively transmitted cultural heritages of a faith or many faiths in order to acquire the ideological means to deal with our individual spiritual experiences by clothing them in the words and ideas that have evolved through the centuries to result in our present consciousnesses ... in other words : if the person can not understand what is being done to them then they are not giving their consent and therefore it is not a religious act.

Circumcision in Judaism is really only valid if you are prepared to publicly hack your own sheath off with a blunt flint blade aged thirteen ... Most Jewish boys are rather too shy to do this and so would argue vehemently against it - so it was long ago resolved to do it to them before they could not only argue back but cite scripture whilst doing so ... Personally I am of the opinion that circumcision aged thirteen - i.e. undertaken by somebody capable of informed consent - is a valid religious witness provided that you do not do it in public or offend others by waving the results around aftwards e.g. by posting images of your putz on social media or presenting the remainder of it some unsuspecting person - I suspect that is probably the cultural origins of the engagement ring ...

... DO NOT FRY IT UP AND STICK IT IN A PACK OF ONION RINGS ... OR PORK SCRATCHINGS ...
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: circ Reply with quote

How many 13 year old boys do you think would volunteer for this? I have heard of grown men doing so as part of the conversion process. These proselytes were usually going through all the hoops because their fiancees were Jewish, and they wanted to be acceptable to their parents-in-law.

They must have been really in love! It's hard to understand how anyone could make such a sacrifice. It's surprising as men don't usually give up things for women.

At least in these cases, the initiates were anaesthetised. At least, I hope they were.

Although we associate non therapeutic male circumcision with Jews, the majority of boys who have to endure this are Muslims. At one time, almost all American baby boys were circumcised before they left the hospital where they were born. It was a medical fashion.

Somebody was shocked to hear that well over 90% of male American babies were circumcised, and asked ''Good God! Why!'', expecting an abstruse philosophical reply. But the answer was, ''The mother wanted it, the doctor profited from it, and the baby couldn't complain!'' It really was as simple as that.

I had wondered if the unkindest cut of all might at least be beneficial for women. It is said that the virus that causes cervical cancer in women lurks under the male foreskin. Israel has the lowest rate of cervical cancer in the world. Is it a coincidence?

But then, why don't Muslim countries match Israel in levels of cervical cancer? There is evidence that male circumcision is bad for women.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:27 am    Post subject: milos Reply with quote

Marillyn Milos didn't know much about circumcision when she agreed that her three sons should be circumcised. A doctor had told her that it didn't hurt and that it only took a moment.

Then as part of her nurse's training, she had to watch the circumcision of a male baby. The baby started screaming in excruciating pain as soon as his foreskin was clamped. He arched his little body and his shrieks redoubled as his foreskin was crushed. He was now choking and gasping for breath for his continuous screaming had not let him breathe easily. As his foreskin was amputated, he was left limp and spent.

Marilyn now opposes male circumcision and bitterly regrets allowing her sons to be done. Two mothers on a maternity ward marvelled at the trusting and happy natures of their new born children, a boy and girl.

They bonded straight away. Then the boy was circumcised as was then the custom. After that, his personality changed. He didn't want to feed, went stiff when his mother picked him up, wouldn't catch her eye, and rejected her affectionate advances.

''It's only the circumcision'', said the nurse soothingly as if that meant it didn't matter. It might have been the father's decision to circumcise the baby or even the doctor's. But he associated it with his mother who was the whole world to him.

Is this a good indicator for his ability to trust women or relate to them in later life?


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dai



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that - although traumatic - circumcision is any worse than having a thumb hacked off : the problem is not the pain of the event but the disadvantages of it not being there afterwards ... It is hardly possible for men who were circumcised in infancy to compare what it felt like before and after ... Furthermore it might be a cultural response to a genetic problem which had developed within an inbred community : I have been advised to ease my condition by submitting to circumcision ... but I do not think that it will change my disposition towards Ersatz Israel : it might help with the agonising pain of a full erection when my too-tight foreskin is accidently drawn back ... On the other hand the idea of not having the sensitive soft tissue containing so many nerve endings protected by that sheathe does not appeal to me : it has been argued that male circumcision increases women's sexual pleasure because it increases the friction upon the vagina as the penis is thrust back and forth instead of the vagina and sheath acting as a lock and key thus reducing the friction on the sides of the vagina as the skin of the foreskin then unfolds with each thrust towards the os. Surely from both a female and male point of view the prospect of a sore vagina or penis as a result of copulation is not a happy one and furthermore possibly desensitising the penis will result in longer attempts to stimulate the male - or alternatively if overly sensitive the male may not thrust so hard into the vagina and so not bear down upon the clitoris and not stimulate the female.

It is basically odd to me that anybody who praises and worships The Creator for The Creation should then take it into their heads to decide to correct The Omniscient One : The World is imperfect in as much as it was supplied without a manual - let alone any warranty or guarantees - and Republicanism is but one of our historical efforts to write an account of how it works ... but - look : if I went to buy a car and found it supplied with a box of bits that had been removed by a car dealership because they did not understand the function of those bits and so deemed them to be unnecessary I would be more than alarmed ... It is the same with the idea of turning up to find that dealers have painted stripes on the car and want me to pay them more because they claim that this will make it go faster ... Or that they have attached reins to the engine which pass over the bonnet into the sunroof which must therefore be kept open because cars traditionally had them because they were drawn by horses ...

... This kind of nonsense is why I rejected " religion " entirely as I then understood it as a teenager and yet understood also that it is the universal, natural and useful human behaviour of endeavouring to collectively make sense of our lives - hence I deemed that a healthy religion is speculative, experimental and progressive and luckily for me I encountered Quakerism aged twenty four - but ! - I have grown irritated by the inability of Quakers to speak plainly due to their obsession with never formulating a creed lest they offend anybody else or coerce each other : I am also lucky to be slightly Jewish-ish-ish because whilst I do not agree with everything in Judaism I find that to stand with others and in unison with them to declare The Good Things ( albeit in Hebrew which sort of renders Judaism's witness to The World a bit lame ) ... was like drinking fresh water from Jacob's Well having sailed for thirty years upon The Ocean of Light : in Quakerism you are volunteered to drink in everything with rather more than a pinch of salt.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:02 pm    Post subject: improve Reply with quote

But who wants to have a thumb hacked off? It does seen impudent to improve on nature's - or God's - design. It's a bit different with an adult with a too tight foreskin.

I've read that Marie Antoinette was one of the child brides whose fate I would normally deplore. She was 15 when she married Louis xvi. But the marriage wasn't consummated until she was 20.

This wasn't because Louis showed chivalrous restraint. It was because he had an agonisingly tight foreskin. It took him five years to work up the resolve to have it cut off. There were probably no anaesthetics then except alcohol.

Isn't there any better remedy for phimosis of the prepuce now than circumcision? Since you have been brave enough to mention the subject, I might say that I might well have clitoral phimosis but I'm not bothered.

It doesn't hurt. It doesn't stop me enjoying myself. I'm not crazy enough to allow a surgical knife anywhere near my parts. It should always be a last resort!


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:33 pm    Post subject: foto Reply with quote

In Judaism and generally in Islam, circumcision now happens in infancy. But in much of Africa and among Australian natives, it is part of a puberty rite.

A recent polemic mentioned 15 young boys who died during their man making ceremonies - and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Boys are so often dying to become men in South Africa.

Native Australians also have something called subincision. American papers record the deaths during puberty rites as if they are a symptom of how backward and primitive these boys' cultures are.

This is a bit rich. Infants are dying of circumcision related problems in New York hospitals. Some poor babies have their penises cut off by mistake or have other acquired deformities.

The report mentioned the traditional practice of mohels taking the penis they had just mutilated in their mouths and sucking the blood away. Apart from being far from hygienic, it is obviously a sexual act on a child.

The scandal of FGM should make us sensitive to the horror of MGM. But it hasn't - at least not the ridiculous contributors to the message board who accused the writer of anti-Semitism and homophobia!


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:02 pm    Post subject: chronicle Reply with quote

The circumcision ban in Germany was prompted by a botched circumcision of a child of Muslim parents. Yet a rabbi called it the worst attack on Judaism since the holocaust.

I heard a rabbi on TV recount a story in support of circumcision. It was about how a woman during the Shoah demanded a knife from her Nazi oppressors, and they gave her one, hoping to see a bit of fun. Would she cut her wrists or throat? No, she cut off her baby's foreskin.

I don't know what point he was trying to make, except to tarnish those who respect children's human rights by conflating them with Nazis. I also wonder if this story is true at all. It sounds like an update of the story in the Appocrypha about Hulda at the time of Judas Maccabeus.

I've heard another rabbi on TV come out with some absolute tosh in favour of circumcision, and then say ''It's very interesting that we're having this discussion on Moses' birthday.''

How did he know when Moses' birthday was? There is no clue about it in Exodus. It's almost certain that Moses never existed.

The Jewish Chronicle had a jokey piece about the Black Jews of Ethiopia. They were such good Jews that they circumcised everyone including girls! It is supposed to sound hilarious.

I've even read a serious claim that it shows how kind the Torah is to children that baby boys are not circumcised as soon as they leave their mothers' wombs, but are allowed to keep their foreskins for eight days afterwards.

I hope that in a few generations' time, this insensitivity will be unthinkable.


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dai



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Virtual or symbolical circumcision may be the answer : we should circumcise our own minds - permanently expose ourselves to others and be more sensitive to others.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: in the mind Reply with quote

Yes, absolutely. I wouldn't go for mental circumcision in the sense that part of your grey matter should be lopped off. But what the much maligned Paul said about the divine covenant in the heart or the mind made sense for once.

Islam sees itself as perfecting the scriptures of the People of the Book who came before. So it has a condescending attitude to both Christians and Jews. Christianity likewise saw itself as perfected, an improvement on the Old Law.

Christianity's self perception that it is superior to Judaism is something I often find nauseating, but Paul had a point in excoriating 'axe wielding circumcisionaries.' We can be thankful the custom wasn't carried forward into Christianity.

Adult converts were anxious to avoid it for obvious reasons. But Paul didn't reject it because it was cruel and wrong. He thought it was unimportant, meaningless. It could make no difference to how acceptable you were in the eyes of God. 'Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything.'


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:41 pm    Post subject: gymnasia Reply with quote

St Paul said that if you are called being uncircumcised, you should not be circumcised. If any is called being circumcised, 'let him not seek to remove the marks of his circumcision.' Men of Jewish parentage were often ashamed of their shorn genitals.

If they exercised naked in the gymnasia, Pagans often mocked the state of their parts. So they often attempted to stretch the remains of their foreskins down so as to pass muster among Greeks.

Later mohels were wise to this. They adapted the brit so as to make this impossible. With a carefully sharpened finger nail, they slit the skin in such a way that there are no ragged remains.

It has been argued that circumcision is more hygienic, and that the foreskin of an uncircumcised boy needs to be retracted for washing. In fact there is no need to do this. It will be painful. When he is older, it can usually be slid back easily, and only then will it be necessary to wash under it.

It is obviously not hygienic to circumcise a boy, as the foreskin protects the glans from direct contact with urine and faeces. Several mohels in New York have been forbidden to practise as they gave herpes to babies when sucking the blood from their genitals with their mouths. But they were not named and have continued to practise.

People are concerned only about the health risks. They are oblivious to the fact that the mohel is performing a sex act on a week old baby - and for this he gets paid!


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dai



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that this can be counted as a sexual act : a brit is usually conducted with the baby in the father's lap with everybody standing around watching - and as I understand it scissors and antiseptic are used. Tales of mothers sucking their babies' genitals to calm them are a commonplace so that.is likely to be derogatory folklore. Jonathan Freedland wrote about his son's traditional brit in " Jacob's Gift " and I think that it is in here somewhere -

http://www.jonathanfreedland.com/author/jonathan/page/138/

I ought not to be expressing an opinion upon this subject : Chabad is generally a good source of information about the opinions and practices of Othodox people - and they have a good sense of humour apparently - " nutshell " ?

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1472861/jewish/The-Circumcision-Ceremony-in-a-Nutshell.htm

P.S. I ought to point out that my conception of Jewish life is much more of a domestic setting : that description of a brit takes place in a synagogue and reflects a traditional larger community not the smaller scattered populations of Welsh Jewry whose religious ives were not conducted in public in synagogues but in private in front rooms. If as I suspect my ancestors were Karaites and " strollers " they too would not be conducting their religious lives in public. The Karaite place for a religious gathering was the kenesa where people worshipped on their knees : Muslim worship was modeled on this eastern version of Jewish practice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenesa

Anyway - I want to get off the whole subject : the images of Jews favoured in the media are very stereotypical and misleading - not even the Orthodox are the miserable and narrow-minded head-bangers they are portrayed to be -

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aSRNTFvwIRU
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:22 am    Post subject: In Reply with quote

Sucking the blood away doesn't always happen, especially these days but it used to be commonplace. Spit was thought to be a disinfectant. It obviously still happens in New York. Somebody said it was not a sexul act in that context, but this argument is ridiculous.

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dai



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I leave you to your opinion but I would like to see it evidenced : can you copy in a link about this ?

To go back to the general subject : what about scarification and tattoos ?

Are we of the same sentiment that the natural state of a healthy body should not be disturbed ?
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:26 am    Post subject: mi Reply with quote

I don't like tattoos much but I don't think I have a right to impose my tastes on the youth of today who love them. Surprisingly, Judaism forbids tattoos.

This probably goes back to the Old Testament, but the current rationalisation is that you should not modify the body God gave you. It's not consistent with the same religion enjoining modification of the penis, but whoever is consistent?

Scarification doesn't sound too good. Prussian officers used to wear their fencing scars with pride. As an African rite, it's not that great because you can't escape the soical pressure to have it done. The piercings that youth have today are apparently voluntary, so I say nothing against them. My eldest son has modifed his ears to take plug shaped earrings. I'd be just as happy if he had left his ears as nature intended, but it's his choice.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: https Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZLCxCljq-Y
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: jonathan Reply with quote

I'm as keen as anyone on Jonathan Freedland's Guardian articles, and agree with him about Trump, climate change and - oh, nearly everything! I feel a little punctured that he would want his son to be circumcised.

I think it possible that even a normally thoughtful and sensible person might be blind to what is wrong with it, because it is just taken for granted in his culture.It is a bit surprising in Jonathan Freedland's case as he does take a critical eye to much in Judaism such as exclusivity. He thinks that inter faith marriages should be welcomed.

Other people will say, ''I don't care if my fiancee fries bacon in butter, but she must be Jewish!'' Some Jews will take on all or some of the traditions without even believing in God as a defiant gesture to the Nazi extermination plan. Like the March of the Living, it says, ''We're still here!'', 'Yma o hyd' as it were!

I do think this particular ritual is an extremely unfortunate one. But you can understand that adults who have been through it themselves might feel anxious and defensive. They might think, ''I don't think I've been adversely affected, but is it possible I have been, and I'm not even aware of it?'' That's a thought you have to banish.

Adult do exist who will say, ''I was often beaten/sexually abused/humiliated as a child and it didn't do me any harm!'' The harm is that they can't see the harm it has done to them. One of Fred West's daughters is in total denial about what he did to her, and honours his memory.

You know my opinion on the 'great' Abrahamic faiths. It is that Judaism is the least harmful of the three, especially if you detach it from Zionism. And no doubt the oral blood sucking extravaganza is only pracitised by a minority of Jews these days.

Even if this was not the case, I would hesitate to have a heading such as 'Blood Sucking Pervert Paedophile Rabbis!' as there is a disturbing resurgance of anti-Semitism today, and I don't want to do anything to stir it up. But sometimes, you feel that you must tell the truth and shame the Devil.

What is remarkable is that this rite, partly but not totally superseded in the present day world, is objectively an act of gross indecency on a baby. Yet people are blind to it.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: uwchben Reply with quote

In the link I give two posts above this one, the rabbi explains that sucking a circumcised baby's blood from his penis with your mouth 'may' be better than other methods. The mouth is more supple. Human saliva 'may' have anti-septic qualities.

He appears to be honestly stating what he has been taught to say and believes himself. He cites the sources which recommend it.

But the video is a bit jerky and faulty, and keeps stopping and starting. It seems to me that the rabbi's micro expressions when the film halts of its own accord, make him look shifty, but I might very well be wrong. I am not good at reading people's emotions, not a bit. What do you think?

The sidebar has come up with a story of mohels giving babies herpes when sucking their genitals. The other stories on the sidebar are mostly reflective of my current interests. So there is a good video of 'Dacw 'nghariad' and videos by Richard Grannon the Spartan life coach. They may not be directly relevant, but I recommend them anyway.

Alas, a crazy conspiracy video has also come up on the sidebar about what 'elite Luciferian Jews don't want you to know.' I knew nothing about this video, haven't clicked on it, and strongly advise everyone to ignore it.

This crazy anti-Semitism is all over the place, all over the net. No wonder people, including myself, hesitate to make even valid criticisms. You don't want to spark this craziness off.

But now I think our caution contains a grain of moral cowardice. After all, the welfare of real children is at stake. I must also reiterate that the majority of boys circumcised for purely religious reasons are Muslims.

I don't know if they have oral sex performed on them immediately afterwards. Perhaps someone could let us know.


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dai



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that you know that I share your sensibilities - I do not like seeing baby girls with their ears pierced - so if we get on to discussing circumcision in general then I will not feel so uptight about it. After all it was fashionable in The USA as is still Caesarian Section with pseudo-medical explanations given. But how significant are these practices that we might prohibit them by law ? Basically I think that it comes down to the idea that The Rule of Law is based upon prohiting non-consenting relationships : are parents able to consent on behalf of a baby ? Can society intervene e.g. in an abortion because the consent of the baby has not been obtained ? Are babies and adults The Property of The State or The State The Property of Society ?

1330th user registered today - they like you !
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: do Reply with quote

I don't like seeing earrings on very little girls because it was probably their mothers' choice not their own. And if it was their choice, should the parents have consented? If you're going to climb trees and do the other things that children do, are earrings very wise?Perhaps it's ok if they're only 'sleepers.'

I'm afraid though that it may also be a bit of residual snobbery in me. I'm getting as bad as that stupid nob -er,I mean snob- who nearly catapulted us down the stairs in Wetherspoons in Y Fenni. Part of my mind is thinking, ''How common! How vulgar!''

It's unfortunate about abortion. It's an area where you can't do right for doing wrong. It's just not always possible to balance two competing interests. As for caesarean section, a baby obviously can't consent. But I think it is probably safer and less traumatic for a baby than vaginal delivery.

The baby will be born drugged perhaps instead of alert, but it won't have been forced down a long dark corridor after the comfy womb has turned enemy and pushed it out.

A baby is much more likely ,to be born safe and healthy and alive with a ceasarean if it is in a breech position, that is if it is in danger of being born bottom first instead of head first.

I'm always amazed to see pictures of conjoined twins from the Middle Ages who are joined at the chest. You have to think, ''How the hell were they born alive before safe caesareans became possible? How did they get out of their mother's vagina joined at the chest? How could there have been enough room?''

People say there are too many elective ceasareans today, because women are 'too posh to push.' It's true the baby can't consent, but it can't consent to vaginal delivery either. As teenagers so truly wail, ''I didn't ask to be born! I didn't ask to be conceived!''

You probably know that in the days of ancient Rome there was a strong taboo against a woman who died during pregnancy, being buried with the foetus inside her. It was traditional to remove the baby by caesarean section and bury it separately.

If a woman died in advanced pregnancy, the surgeon sometimes found that the baby was alive. It may have been that some of these babies lived to grow up, but it can't possibly be true that Julius Caesar was born this way, and that is why the operation is so called.

There is no record of a caesarean being performed on a living woman who survived it before the Renaissance era, and it is amazing it happened then given the lack of any knowledge of hygiene. Julius Caesar's mother survived his birth by many years.

Our sensibilities are quite different from the Romans. We would think we shouldn't carve into a dead body just for the sake of it.

About what you said above. It is often true that a baby is held on someone's lap while being subjected to ritual circumcision. But I don't know that that is invariable practice.

I have vague memories that the baby may sometimes be placed on a table or bed, and it seems that he is on a flat surface when the blood suction technique - by what or whomever it is delivered - is applied.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: nine Reply with quote

You only have to go online today to find pictures of other people's parts. Girls as young as nine now want labiaplasty. They are convinced they are freaks becasue they have pendulous labia, more so than women in internet porn.

They feel they should look like Barbie dolls. They shouldn't have anything sticking out.

A plastic surgeon says that labiaplasty can improve self esteem. That is what he would say.

Who's ever going to see your labia? Probably very few people!

It's not as if you're going to be taunted in the street on the subject. Generalised feelings of inadequacy are now being focused on this area.

Perhaps these girls need counselling. They don't need surgery.

How times have changed! When I was nine, this was an area I ignored entirely. I never had a good look at another woman's vulva until I was grown up and then only in pictures. More recently, I have felt too that my labia were unusually protruberant.

But labia come in a variety of shapes and sizes. The dangly ones are not favoured by the porn industry, but who wants to work in porn?


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