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Cofrestrfa Tir Cymru - Land Registry for Wales

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:23 am    Post subject: Cofrestrfa Tir Cymru - Land Registry for Wales Reply with quote

I don't think that I am about to actually start a campaign on this, but the present state and form of the Land Registry touches upon many issues as will be demonstrated by the rambling email that I will put into the next post which started with a critique of the Hawliau campaigner's failure to grasp exactly what a ' right ' is and the idea of rights and duties going together. I add the following dedication here to the next paragraph : there has been a young Welsh soldier sleeping rough with his head on a sports bag in the doorways of Cardiff's city centre these past few days, dressed in camouflage gear, boots, beret etc and evidently very much distressed and permanently drunk. I am usually very hard on those who sell themselves for a shilling,* but in this context he epitomises the likely fate of those of you who continue to give your unconditional loyalty to the United Kingdom : this will be your likely reward, the posterity that you will bequeth to your children - they will be homeless in their own homeland, because they have no right to a share in it - only a duty to die defending the interests of those who possess the various kinds of property protected by it, of whom we are merely the tolerated tenants. I wish to express my regret for not directly intervening upon this young man's behalf when the police came, but I will try to do better next time.

( * In Republicanism nobody can be excused responsibility for their actions : the word ' soldier ' comes from ' solidus ' the Latin word for a shilling and in many Republican eyes a soldier is somebody who is no longer a man but a piece of meat, somebody who believes themselves to have been excused responsibility for their actions by putting on a uniform. Such people choose to make themselves unable to discharge their duties towards the rest of us and therefore are not able to claim their rights from us because they are obedient to the ' authority ' of those who either pay them or punish them and they can give no consideration to the morality or ethics of their actions. The United Kingdom has been built upon this corrupt concept of ' authority ' it being a necessary part of the way in which our political system was founded and has been perpetrated through the use of violence, coercion and corruption which has perverted even the very languages that we use, to such an extent that people within the United Kingdom for the most part fail to understand the relationship between ' rights ' and ' duties.'

This lack of understanding most commonly shows up in the numerous torts of ' nuisance ' that occur, being some of the best-tested and demostrably just laws that there are - and commonly both well understood and flouted by the rich because even if the poor understand these laws the English legal system is designed to exclude poor people from the possibility of getting any justice in a courtroom. The rich, inevitably, are those who own most of the land - but you will not be able to discover that from the Land Registry because that was constructed more or less explicitly to control the properties of poor people - and shortly afterwards so were the Local Planning Authorities which had the added powers of protecting both the urban and rural estates of the rich from the encroachments of suburbia and tourism. The activities of the rich are hidden from public scrutiny by devices which have kept their vast estates from being subjected to being a matter of public record in the Land Register of England and Wales, but facts leak out from time to time : it may well be that more or less for every pound collected in ' Community Charge ' by local government, the United Kingdom government pays out an equal amount in ' subsidies ' to rich people on the basis of what are in some cases really vast rural estates which can not be found in the Land Register.

These hidden properties have been wrapped up in trust-deeds registered overseas : the incomes from the United Kingdom's ' subsidies ' to these estates are in some instances hundreds of thousands of pounds paid to the trust companees created for millionaire aristocrats who pay little or no tax upon these ' subsidies ' nor indeed their other business interests such as oil, arms or banking. These are the descendents of the same people who in the past have and in the future will expect US to go to war to protect their business interests, will expect US to guarantee their weapons deals should their friendly crooks cheat them, will expect US to spend our taxes on bailing out their financial institutions - whilst they pay no taxes at all ? When you salute the Union Flag you are not only saluting this corruption, you are participating in it - so salute no flag, offer respect to nothing but such worthwhile things as love, truth, peace and freedom : accepting that these things demand justice, let your conscience be the only authority that you obey.

Therein I think that you will find the basis for a proper understanding of the relationship between rights and duties : justice is the very definition of what our rights consist of and our consciences impose upon us the duty of upholding these rights for all in order to ensure that justice will prevail.)

( This part in red pertains to the argument that this arose from ... and all that I intended to do there was to insert a brief foot note ! )

When a community of people live together their use of the land that they collectively occupy is usually contended : if that land is defended against others militarily, shouldn't everybody who is expected to give up their life to defend it in war expect in peace to be given the means to live by a share in the land they preserved the rights to ? That was the basis of property rights in early medieval Wales, and superficially things are rather more complicated now because nobody really wants a half share in a cow and a muddy patch to squat in as their share in society. We are not living in an agricultural economy any more and few people actually want to live on a small-holding, but our rights to our own share in the collective property of society and identifying and dealing with individuals who own property that is being used in ways that infringe upon these rights bring up a constant raft of issues - but one issue is critical : who possesses which property, what rights do they have over it and in exchange which duties do these persons owe to either immediate neighbours or to the wider society around them ?

Critical to being able to make sense of any of these issues and indeed many more like levying taxation and making subsidies upon the economic uses of land, passing laws which regulate the ownership and specify the uses of land, for having an environmental strategy in general and for local and regonal development in order to plan roads, sewers, water, electricity, gas, telephones, public transport, housing, schools, hospitals, industrial estates etc - is a functioning Land Registry. It needs to describe what kinds of resources exist in the land and the opportunities and problems associated with them, and to identify who is in possession of them in order to define and confirm the rights and duties of the various parties involved. Such land registries are regarded as absolutley necessary documents vital to the exercise of successful government in all the developed countries of the ' western world ' including within the United Kingdom the Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, Scotland and England - and of course - NOT Wales. Ever wondered why Wales looks a mess ? Go look in the Land Registry of England and Wales and you will find the cause of that.

In the over-written emails that I will post next, which started with a discussion of the whether ' national rights ' can really exist and rambled over a series of thoughts, what I found myself thinking about this the following morning was what can be learned from the Land Register of England and Wales : that despite our habitually assuming that Wales is a territory which is governed by the Welsh Government, that territory ceased to exist in 1624 with the repeal of the ' Henry VIII ' clause which brought the Principality of Wales to an end. Yes, there is a piece of geography marked on maps as ' Wales ' and sometimes as ' Cymru ' but in territorial terms it is a piece of geography which is within the territory of the Kingdom of England. This is reflected within the Land Register of England and Wales : it is a single document, and the reason why it is a single document is because it is an account of a single piece of property whose absolute title is held by the Crown, or arguably ' the Crown in Parliament ' which effectively means the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. It is this form of ultimate absolute ownership which is the basis of the legal means by which those who think that they ' own ' but in fact merely ' possess ' their property, either in ' freehold ' or ' leasehold.' can be deprived of it if politicians wish to use it for their own purposes.

The practical meaning of this is that the Welsh Government is a colonial administration on behalf of ' the Crown in Parliament ' which actually owns the territory of which only a small part is labeled ' Wales.' Without actually collectively owning the absolute title of the territory upon which they live the Welsh may well be a nation but they have no actual collective estate in the land, and so arguably they have actually been deliberately prevented from ever founding a nation-state. The Welsh people have effectively been defined by the Labour and Cooperative Party in the devolution settlement as a native people whose language, culture and welfare will receive a certain amount assistance and some protection under the English Law but whose legal status as a people is effectively not that of a nation collectively owning a territory but that of a bunch of squatters upon what albeit were once the lands of their fore-fathers. This is because the whole land labeled Wales not only belongs to somebody else entirely but that somebody else is ' the Crown in Parliament ' which reserves to the United Kingdom the right to evict anybody and everybody from their possession of what they imagine themselves to own whenever somebody comes into government at Westminster who wishes to do so. I am tempted to reflect upon the parallel roadsides of the UK and the USA, the passing tourists delighting in learning a few words of the natives' language and buying some of the native handicrafts sold to them by those non-natives who have moved in to exploit the tourist trade by ordering more interesting and better, machine-carved knative-knick-knacks manufactured by small children chained to their work benches for hours on end in some death-trap of a third world sweat shop in Swansea ... all of this most probably being sponsored by the Welsh Government, supported by the National Lottery, given a business award by the Western Mail and also likely to be the subject of some sort of new and groundbreaking study by the Welsh Enterprise Institute with some title such as - ' Progressive Enterpreneurial Morality and the Economics of Innovative Industrial Ethics.'

Last edited by dai on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that every man, woman and child in Wales has the right to make a solemn vow of disobedience to ' Y Repwblic ' and the duty to break any such undertaking in obedience to the authority of their conscience ... but I do not seriously think that any of the existing MPs of any party from Wales elected to Westminster is willing to solemnly make a row of disobedience to ' the Crown in Parliament ' by dutifully breaking up the territory of the Kingdom of England in obedience to their conscience. What they might however consider arguing for is ' Y Goron yn Y Senedd,' which would in effect take us back to something like the Principality of Wales as it existed between 1536/1542 - 1624, which in itself was a weird arrangement in which Pura Wallia and Marcher Wallia had been bundled up together and shired into thirteen counties which together with the remaining boroughs each returned a Member of Parliament to the House of Commons. During this period the Crown still had the right to independently make laws over and levy taxes upon the Principality of Wales without the agreement of Parliament - but Parliament also had the right to dependently make laws over and levy taxes upon the Principality of Wales with the consent of the Crown, usually imposing upon the thirteen counties of Wales the same policies and legislations that were being imposed upon the many more counties of England.

If you can understand the political organisation of that, it should be obvious that prior to 1624 the Principality of Wales was still a separate territory from the Kingdom of England : it was the Crown that ruled both - not Parliament, even though there were Welsh MPs in the House of Commons and Welsh aristocrats in the House of Lords. The fact that the Houses of Parliament passed laws that were intended to apply equally to both England and Wales is not relevant : they were not constituted in the same way as Westminster is now and so they were not possessed of sovereignty over either the Kingdom of England or the Principality of Wales - that belonged to the Crown. There was a different political system in the Kingdom of England in which the Crown had to negotiate with Parliament, especially over the raising of taxes which was what eventually caused the stalemate between King James' supporters and his opponents in the House of Commons in 1624.

The Welsh MP's exploited this stalemate in 1624 to bring an end to the Principality of Wales as a separate territory because wthin their polity the Crown ruled independently by decree, and King James had exploited his absolute power to make further laws and impose more taxes on top of the laws and taxes agreed by Parliament to apply to the Welsh and he had basically left the people of the Principality of Wales rioting as paupers. Thus the Welsh MPs were seeking the protection afforded by the political system of the Kingdom England which they did by risking the tyranical king's displeasure by switching sides in the House of Commons and opposing King James' supporters and refusing to vote for more taxes until he relinquished his absolute power over the Principality of Wales, which was thereafter extinguished as a separate territory. In the final act of this dramatic episode referred to as ' The Happy Parliament ' the English MPs opposing King James repaid the Welsh MPs for their support in the House of Commons by using their majority to repeal the thirty-three anti-Welsh laws passed since Henry IV.

The Scottish and the English had been made equal before each other's laws when King James came to the throne some twenty years before, but these remaining penal laws against the Welsh had provided King James with opportunities to exploit them : equality before the law for the Welsh was still only really for those who could speak the English tongue sufficiently well in court rooms. The penal laws against the Irish were soon to be further added to, and political union with Great Britain did not benefit them to any degree comparable to that of the Welsh and Scottish, so unsurprisingly the Irish became passionate opponents of the union of Great Britain and Ireland. But neither the Irish nor the Scottish suffered the absolute loss of their national territorial integrity in the way that the Welsh have done since 1624, the border between England and Wales not merely being blurred but physically moved and those rural Welsh-speaking enclaves left inside England have been extinguished entirely.

If, as I have contended above, the Welsh Government only administers a defined area of the Kingdom of England which is not strictly speaking a territory at all because it is merely a part of that Kingdom's territory whose sovereignty is claimed to be ' the Crown in Parliament ' and is therefore not divided into two separate parts, the Welsh Assembly is merely a regional government of the Kingdom of England whose title deeds can not divided i.e. the Land Register of England and Wales constitutes a single document and can not be divided. Howver there is no need to despair if the Welsh MPs at Westminster can be persuaded to see the merit of arguing for the Welsh Government to establish a more useful Land Register for Wales in such a way that eschews the issue of there being no actual Welsh territory to speak of and therefore avoids demanding a separate sovereignty.

Provided that the documentation created by a new Land Registry for Wales continues to be compatible with that created by the existing Land Registry for England and Wales, the sort of documentation that might be created by a new Land Registry for Wales could be like that used in other countries which provides the kind of information vital for informing well-grounded decision making by their governments. At present the documentation provided for by the Land Registry for England and Wales is next to near useless for all practical purposes, even for the purposes of identifying the actual extent of a property for any pospective private purchaser of something so simple as a lock-up garage. The existing Land Register of England and Wales offers the Welsh Government none of the detailed information that might be used to inform policies and decide laws, and although this may be an opaque issue to some this kind of detail is the very stuff of Republicanism : without good sources of factual information politicians are reduced to making decisions upon the basis of personal convictions which amount to nothing more than aesthetic philosophical conjectures which usually prove to be wildly wrong.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I have remarked above, The Land Registry is a critical political tool ... so to privatise it is ... dangerous ?

STOP THE PRIVATISATION OF THE LAND REGISTRY -https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-privatisation-of-the-land-registry?bucekt=blast2


Stop plans to sell off the Land Registry

Why is this important?

The Land Registry records the ownership of all land and property in England and Wales.

If private companies get their hands on the Land Registry they’ll have one thing on their minds - profits. This could mean a hike in price for all of us, or a fall in standards because of cost-cutting measures.

The Land Registry is a public service that is self funding and is not a drain on public finance. There's no need to sell it off to the highest bidder.


38 Degrees

Dear David,

The government’s snuck out plans to sell off the Land Registry - the profitable public service that records the sale of houses and land. [1] It’s a short sighted move to make a quick buck. [2] So 38 Degrees member James, a legal services property expert, is campaigning to stop the sell-off.

The government announced the plans just before Easter. Maybe they were hoping to bury the news while everyone was enjoying their bank holiday weekend. A huge petition will shine a spotlight on their plans - it's the last thing they will want.

If you think it’s time we stopped flogging our valuable public services to profit-hungry companies, then please sign the petition now:

Here’s what James says:

"There is no need to sell off the Land Registry to the highest bidder. Privatisation could seriously affect how property transactions are regulated in England and Wales. If private companies get their hands on it they’ll have one thing on their minds - profits. This could mean a worse service and a hike in price for all of us"

The Land Registry is a trusted government body which exists to serve ordinary people. [3] It holds huge amounts of data and sorts out who owns what. Imagine this kind of responsibility sitting with a private company who only care about their bottom line.

38 Degrees members know we can stop this happening. When the government tried to sell off the Land Registry before, over 100,000 of us leapt into action. Our people-powered campaign forced government ministers to back down. [4] We can do the same again now, but first we need more of us to get involved.

Can you sign the petition to stop the privatisation of the Land Registry?

Thanks for being involved,

Trish, Louie, Robin and the 38 Degrees team


[1] Independent: Government quietly announces plan to privatise the Land Registry on night before Easter Holidays:

[2] Mirror: Tories sneak out Land Registry sell-off at at 5pm the night before Easter holiday:

[3] You can find out more about what the Land Registry does here:

[4] 38 Degrees: Land Registry Victory:
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