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Moritz



Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 225

PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:30 am    Post subject: Re: dip Reply with quote

marianneh wrote:
When one of our friends' self expression took a transvestite turn, some people found it hard to cope with, They were the ones who had the problem, but that was not how they saw it.

Somebody who had bipolar and liked everything very cut and dried, thought it would be better if our friend went the whole hog and became a transsexual. The bipolar guy had a problem with ambiguity.

I disagreed strongly. Transvestism was not an important issue in my view. It was purely arbitrary, the result of historical accident, what get up was considered appropriate for one sex, and which for the other.

In Bangladesh, women wore baggy trousers and men wore long robes - or skirts if you prefer. Greek men in national costume wear white kilts. You have to go no further than Scotland to find macho men with hairy legs in kilts.

The only difference between a kilt and a skirt is the way it is fastened. Desmond Morris made the same point in highlighting a picture of Henry viii wearing what looks today like a mini skirt and white tights. He is also sporting a bulging codpiece and obviously thinks he is exuding machismo.

We had an acquaintance whose genes came from Mozambique and Austria. His foolish statements could make you feel despairing. He complained in all seriousness that Elizabethan men must have been effeminate as they wore tights.

My friend Liz commented, ''Oh, do you think Roman soldiers were effeminate as well? They wore leather skirts!''


When Marcus was doing life drawing, he says "It's not sex. It's curves and aesthetix."
Phils says "So why not draw naked men?
Marcus says "I can't draw naked men. If I ever see a penis, I will turn gay."
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dai



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23795655 -

This is about the 1963 Bristol Bus Boycott - when the passengers refused to used the buses and walked in protest at the bus company openly stating that it was operating a colour bar against conductors and drivers ... and the trade unions backed up the bus company ...

I am making this note on my smartphone so I can not write at length : the reason that I thought of it is because it is sort of the reverse case - black people were banned from being allowed to wear an item of clothing i.e. a uniform ... When the trade union leaders - who were simultaneously campaigning against Apartheid in South Africa - finally gave in to the pressure the company promptly changed its policy the next day - but as a compromise they thought that they would hire a brown person to begin with ... He turned out to be a Sikh who wanted to wear his turban and so yet another controversy erupted over whether he could and what colour he might wear to go with the uniform.

It is a good magazine article with interesting video clips - and what struck me was that it recalled to mind our parents' generation's casual and naive racism - harmlesslessy fantasisied anxieties which in a way hurt themselves more than the people which they fantasised about becsuse their fears led them to not wish to encounter those they found strange - black, brown, red, yellow ... Catholics, Jews, Muslims - ooh ! - Methodists, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses - Conservatives, Fascists, Liberals, Communists, Socialists, Anarchists - " We do not hold with all of this political nonsense Dai bach - we support The Labour Party ! " ... " I am not saying that women are a bad lot David - but just stay away from them : trust me - I am your mother ! "
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dai



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23795655 -

This is about the 1963 Bristol Bus Boycott - when the passengers refused to used the buses and walked in protest at the bus company openly stating that it was operating a colour bar against conductors and drivers ... and the trade unions backed up the bus company ...

I am making this note on my smartphone so I can not write at length : the reason that I thought of it is because it is sort of the reverse case - black people were banned from being allowed to wear an item of clothing i.e. a uniform ... When the trade union leaders - who were simultaneously campaigning against Apartheid in South Africa - finally gave in to the pressure the company promptly changed its policy the next day - but as a compromise they thought that they would hire a brown person to begin with ... He turned out to be a Sikh who wanted to wear his turban and so yet another controversy erupted over whether he could and what colour he might wear to go with the uniform. ... I can not think of any examples of the wearing of specific colour being banned but is this not akin to fetishism or having an irrational fear of door knobs ?

It is a good magazine article with interesting video clips - and what struck me was that it recalled to mind our parents' generation's casual and naive racism - harmlesslessy fantasisied anxieties which in a way hurt themselves more than the people which they fantasised about because their fears led them to not wish to encounter those they found strange - black, brown, red, yellow ... Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindoos - ooh ! - Methodists, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses - Conservatives, Fascists, Liberals, Communists, Socialists, Anarchists - " We do not hold with all of this political nonsense Dai bach - we support The Labour Party ! " ... " I am not saying that women are a bad lot David - but just stay away from them : trust me - I am your mother ! "

I think that we often concentrate to much on those who only appear to be on the receiving end of racism e.g. who have a nasty remark made to them at closing time when alcohol has loosened somebody's tongue and they speak about what has otherwise been a privately " harmlessly fantasised anxiety " - but actually these thoughts can be very harmful and most especially if all of this anti-racist campaigning results in them never being expressed ... The whole point of " Free Speech " is not - as supposed in Wales - to simply have the constant opportunity to spout your own point of view and bully others into agreeing with it - but to be able to say what you think and then listen to what others have to say about what you think ... Racism only flourishes amongst small occult groups like the Klu Klux Klan because they are closed communities tht refuse to listen to those outside of their boundary i.e. Ultraists deliberately cultivate various forms of manufactured " otherness " like Racism, Sexism, RELIGIONISM ?

... So let us cultivate The Open Society and not exclude those whose minds are poisoned by such corruptions of reality - but give them an opportunity and some time and assistance to find their way out of these and other disorders of thought : denouncing such people and frightening them into an outward conformity is actually either part of the problem or indeed the original cause of such things when small children are brutally treated for making their first efforts to make sense of their world - usually by older siblings or inadequate parents who sneer at such efforts and thus elevate their own sense of themselves.

... mmm ...
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dai



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Marianne,

a link to this turned up in another context ( I do not want to over-egg the connections though ) - more women in burkhas : what do you think ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7919501/Israeli-rabbis-clamp-down-on-burka.html

" ... a leading rabbinical authority is to issue an edict declaring burka wearing a sexual fetish that is as promiscuous as wearing too little. ... the habit has spread to five other Israeli towns causing alarm among ultra-orthodox religious leaders who once saw it as a relatively harmless eccentricity ... “There is a real danger that by exaggerating, you are doing the opposite of what is intended [resulting in] severe transgressions in sexual matters,” Shlomo Pappenheim, a member of the rabbinical authority preparing to make the edict, was quoted as saying ... "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_burqa_sect

" The frumka as a mode of dress for Haredi women was encouraged by Bruria Keren, an Israeli religious leader who taught a strict (by Orthodox standards) interpretation of Jewish scripture for female adherents. Keren, who covers herself in several layers of clothing, claims that covering women was originally a Jewish tradition, and that she has seen a 400-year-old picture of Jewish women covered from head to toe.[1] There are also Sephardic women, who claim that their mothers covered their bodies entirely so that one cannot discern their figures.[2] Keren declares to “follow these rules of modesty to save men from themselves. A man who sees a woman's body parts is sexually aroused, and this might cause him to commit sin. Even if he doesn't actually sin physically, his impure thoughts are sin in themselves”. Some of her followers also have their small girls covering themselves in the same way, and the women do not expose their face even at home. ...

... In February 2008, Bruria Keren was arrested on charges of severely abusing her children.[5] Identified in court as "B.", she was convicted by the Jerusalem District Court in 2009 on three counts of abuse of a minor or helpless person and 25 counts of assault in aggravated circumstances, and sentenced to four years in prison. Her husband, identified in court as "M." was also convicted of 10 counts of assault and three counts of abuse of a minor or helpless person, and was sentenced to six months in jail ...

... Bruria Keren does not speak in front of men and has taken on various ascetic practices. During her prison term, she was hospitalized several times for malnutrition and other maladies as a result of her unwillingness to eat the food provided. Some members of the group reportedly do not believe in vaccination or treatments. On February 8, 2013, one woman's baby allegedly died from untreated flu, with the parents then fleeing from the law. On another occasion, a new born baby had to be taken to hospital by force, after the mother had refused to go to hospital to give birth to avoid contact with hospitals and physicians. Other cases of child abuse and neglect have been reported within the group. ... The Israeli press has adopted the informal epithet "Taliban mothers" to refer to the followers of Bruria Keren's teachings on modesty. ... "
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Moritz



Joined: 10 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haredim have stared into the Abyss and the Abyss looked back.
you fight monsters, you become a monster.

Good News, some Haredim disagree with the Frumka. When a mad evil priest says you are too extreme...
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:56 am    Post subject: sephardi Reply with quote

Some Sephardi Jews will have traditionally had burka like things because their ancestors lived in Muslim majority countries for centuries. Similarly, they would have retained polygyny which Ashkenazi Jews ditched about the time of William the Conqueror.

While some may have picked up the burqa wearing habit insensibly, it is frightening that others have made a 'conscious' decision to wear it. I don't think any religion should be encouraged, but I think the rabbis are making a fair point in saying that far from desexualising its wearer, a burqa shows she has an unhealthy obsession with sex.

I mentioned on another site, women who not only wear burqas but black masks on their faces which resemble a horse's bridle. They look absolutely pervy. You will often find that the most puritanical people you meet, are actually sex obsessed when you get to know them.

Tabloid papers used to make me very uneasy because they condemned other people's sex lives in a titilating way. It may sound harsh but if Jews who adopt burqas were excommunicated, it would be a good thing. This is something that should be nipped in the bud.

It's not that prurient nonsense didn't exist in Judaism at all before this. The ultra orthodox areas will have notices saying, 'Daughters of Israel, have respect, cover your arms!''

There are even self styled morality vigilantes who go round assaulting women whom they deem to be immodestly dressed. They will also try to force women to sit at the back of buses as if buses were old fashioned synagogues. They often resort to violence. One woman who put up a fight is now known as the Israeli Rosa Parks.

These people are a minority. Most Israelis despise them.

I'll just mention a not yet dead custom that makes me feel sad. You will be aware that a woman's hair is considered to be especially enticing in Judaism. The conviction grew among the Ashkenazi that married women should not have hair lest they entice strange men with their tempting locks.

So literally within minutes of the wedding ceremony, a new bride would have her head shaved. Instead of hair, she would have a really dodgy wig known as a shaital which resembled a roughed up door mat.

This custom was only mainstream for just over a century, petering out in the early 1900s. But it does still persist among the ultra-Orthodox although the wigs have improved in quality.

I've just seen on TV a British woman from an Islamic background who says she is threatened and insulted by Muslims constantly because she won't wear a burqa. People have even complained to her employer - who takes her side.

Perhaps this is an argument for a ban on the burqa. It would put an end to this kind of harassment.

Women will be wheeled on to talk shows to say they are wearing the burqa voluntarily. They don't mention this sort of hassle. Sam Harris says that when women say it is their own choice, we should be 'slow to take their word for it.'


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:36 pm    Post subject: frum Reply with quote

I'm aware there's a word like 'fromme' in German that means pious. It could be used to describe a Lutheran. It became 'froom' or 'frum' in Yiddish.

Male Orthodox Jews could show they were frum by praying three times a day, winding phylacteries around their foreheads and arms when required. But traditionally women were not expected to pray or study as they would be too absorbed in the sacred womanly task of cleaning, tidying and doing all outside work.

Apart from keeping a kosher kitchen, women had no religious role but to light the Sabbath candles on Friday nights. You can see that some women would have been longing for a way to advertise that they too could be frum without straying into the outre versions of Judaism which don't exclude women from everything fun.

Among the ultra-Orthodox. women don't wear trousers or short sleeves. They often wear two layers of stockings but I don't think this is to do with modesty. It's a leftover custom from harsh winters in Ukraine.

Their clothes are just dowdy. They don't stand out in anyway.

At least a frumka will make people stop and look at you, although ostensibly, this is not what you want. It reminds me of Mevrouw Van Daan in the secret annexe bragging about her modesty.

Competitive modesty is a contradiction in terms. It's more like exhibitionism. I think the rabbis are on to something.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:32 am    Post subject: only anatevka Reply with quote

I've come across a tatty paperback I have no memory of owning, 'Daughters of Rachel' by Natalie Rein. It was published in 1980, but may give us some insight into the mentality that finally gave us the frumka.

In the shtetl, Jews retreated from 'the horrors of life under the Czars' by withdrawing into 'an isolated world of fanatical religious observance.'

The 'main and most hallowed occupation' was to 'study in the synagogue or the yeshiva and to follow the Jewish laws and customs to the letter.'

But 'the women's world [was] outside the kheyder and the besmidrech....Since study of the Divine Law [was] not for women, they were automatically excluded...A woman's formal status was indirect....For men there was the title 'Reb' but for women there [was] no corresponding title.'

'For them life and religion meant hardship, deprivation and slavery with few rewards. For men, there was acceptance in the eyes of God; learnnig, the development of the intellect (even though in a narrow ecclesiastical environment) for which they were honoured beyond measure, and, whenever possible, the chance of fulfilment in the outside world.'

Rein lamented, 'From birth, girls were given no place in the family. They were a burden...they were married off at an early age, often to men many years older than themselves. On marriage, women's heads were shaved and remained so throughout their lives.'

They wore 'ugly characterless wigs. Any outward signs of physical attractiveness in women were strictly forbidden so as not to provide temptations for men. 'A woman is considered so potent a source of attraction that a man must avert his eyes in order to protect them both. Some men will not even speak directly to women.' 'Extreme avoidance of women by men was the prescribed pattern of the shtetl.'

Women had to know the rules of kashrut but 'they learned their ritualised duties by rote and through the oral tradition; they were offered no rational explanation for the rites they performed.'

Rein quoted Zborowski and Herzog: 'She is not included in religious ritual outside the home and is, in fact, not expected to be familiar with it. Moreover, she does not have powers of discretion even in household ceremonial. On any problem of observance she must consult a man - her husband, a rabbi, a respected scholar - and even if she knows the answer herself by experience, she has not the right to decide for herself.'

Here is a filial paen to feminine virtue: ' She was a perfect Jewish woman, clean, patient, submissive to God and to her husband, devoted to her children...her own welfare was unimportant.'

Marriages were arranged. Love was 'not important' in 'initiating or even maintaining the union.' 'Sons, on the other hand, were sanctified from birth.'

Rein quoted Diamond, ' The mother's relationship with her son was direct and overprotective, with particular overattention to feeding. She did her best to smother him with love ...Undoubtedly, the mother's response to the son served as an outlet...for emotionally inhibited relationships....She strove to keep the son a child, her child...and surrendered him reluctantly....' It was 'a species of romance.'

It does no one any good to suppress or oppress anyone else. Here, we can see the origins of 'Portnoy's Complaint', a tendency to emotional if not literal incest. Obviously dutifully suppressing your personality will cause other freakish outbursts too.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:10 pm    Post subject: aliya Reply with quote

One way shtetl life differed from other conservative societies was that there was no feeling that women needed to be protected or chaperoned. It was taken for granted that they could look after themselves. 'If anyone is sheltered, it is the scholarly man.'

The Times reported from Ukraine during the pogroms, 'While the Jews of the village were at synagogue a mob attacked the Jewesses and violated many of them, causing the death of these; others who escaped the worse evil were driven into the river and nine ultimately died from the effects of the exposure.'

Not all Jewish women took it lying down. Manya Shochat ran arms for revolutionaries. Once, she shot a Czarist spy dead, dismembered his corpse, put the pieces in a suitcase and sent it to an imaginary address in Siberia.

Women on kibbutzim in the early days were often eager to prove their worth by doing the hardest, most back breaking, even repugnant jobs. Men too, were anxious to prove how tough they were, laying to rest the ghosts of their mother's boy, bookworm ancestors. Unfortunately, this was often expressed as unthinking machismo.

Secularists were uneasy that rabbis sat as of right in the Knesset and, furthermore, ran the family courts. Women could neither be witnesses in rabbinical courts nor initiate divorce.

Natalie Rein was quite condescending about Sephardi women, let alone Muslims and Druze. She wrote, ' The immigrant women from the Oriental countries were quite devoid of a consciousness directed towards emancipation and new life styles. They were, in fact, even more backward than their predecessors from the shtetl and were more oppressed, more culturally set than any previous settlers.'

She said that because the Separdim were uneducated, orthodox religion 'held a rigid grip on its subjects.'

She quoted Weintraub:' ...they all adhered to a traditional way of life -both in general and in Jewish terms - to a world which was static, religious, familistic, and strongly value and and integration oriented. The fundamental values of these Jewish communities was characterised by their extreme conservatism, whose purpose was to uphold an existing value system, in which the present was conceived of in terms of the past.'


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:08 pm    Post subject: orthodox now Reply with quote

The novels of Isaac Bashevis Singer and his brother Israel are still read although rarely in the original Yiddish. Their father was a Hasidic rabbi and a mystic, known in his time for his intellect and spirituality.

Their sister Esther Kreitman was the first sibling to write fiction.

In her autobiographical novel 'Deborah', the protagonist's father is urging his sons to study so they will be renowned Talmudists one day.

The heroine asks, half jokingly, ''And what will I be one day?'' ''What will you be?'', asks the father in amazement, ''Nothing of course!''

Judaism has moved on. Most congregations, and especially the reconstructionist and humanistic ones, have no sexual discrimination at all.

Even Modern Orthodox Judaism has made some accommodation with modernity as its name suggests. In 2013 Malka Schaps became the first female Haredi dean at an Israeli university. In 2013, the first class of female halachic advisers graduated in the USA, and their first judgements were published the following year.

In 2013, in a great concession, girls at an Orthodox high school in New York were allowed to wear tefillin at morning prayers. I think this may mean phylacteries. Or is it prayer shawls? Dafydd will know.

Some Orthodox rabbis think it is acceptable for women to recite kaddish. Women are discouraged from taking up stewardship roles in Orthodox synagogues, but it is not actually forbidden.

Liberal Jews have had Bar Mitzvahs for girls - but they are called Bat Mitzvahs - for decades. Orthodox Jews can't bring themselves to go that far, but they have come so close to it, it is like death by a thousand cuts for the old ways.

They have a communal ceremony for girls whose birthdays came close together, and they read not from the Torah but some other bit of scripture. This is called something like Bot Chayil, 'daughter of honour.'

Although the idea of ordaining women as rabbis has been denounced in Orthodox Judaism, it has nevertheless happened. But Israel is very conservative.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:34 pm    Post subject: histrionic modesty Reply with quote

Rabbanit Bruria Keren, an Israeli mother of ten, has given us the frumka. She is now in prison for permitting child abuse and incest in her house. Before this,she rarely left her home and spoke for only four hours a week to give 'alternative therapy' to her followers.

She cites a portrait of a Jewish woman from the seventeenth century in a shapeless bag as a precedent for the frumka. Bruria Keren once wore a long sleeved dress and a repugnant wig. Now she can hardly believe she was such a slut as to wear a wig.

Under her frumka, she now wears 27 layers of clothes. She also wears men's black socks with their ends cut off over her hands. She thinks even female toddlers should be be-frumkaed.

Like the Taliban, Bruria Keren decrees that women should not wear heels on their shoes lest they draw attention to themselves. Ideally, they should be silent.

Bloggers have made parallels with eating disorders. Modesty, to Keren and her followers means invisibility, making themselves non people.

You could say the Haredi rabbinate has brought this problem on themselves. Did they not encourage womanly modesty? They didn't imagine how mischievously it would be observed.

People have pointed out that the Haredi air brush women's faces out of newspaper pictures. I'm not sure this is a girl thing.

If a film crew is in the street, male Haredim shield their faces with their black hats. They don't want their pictures taken ever. Their souls will be imprisoned.

Keren says it is 'necessary to dress like the holy matriarchs'. It is how women will dress when the Messiah comes. She hasn't heard that Sarah aroused the lust of Pharaoh or that Rebecca let an unknown male servant insert a ring in her pierced nose, nor yet that Leah and Rachel were veiled only during their weddings.

Internet commentators say it is mental illness masquerading as religion. What is disturbing is that one person's neurosis has become religious observance for a multitude. Some of them reject medicine and vaccination for their children.

Like many ferociously 'submissive' women, Keren is far and away the dominant partner at home. Her husband is even more silent than she, slipping through the house sideways. His lawyer describes him as 'a present absentee.'

As this is Israel, some of Keren's disciples have been taken for Muslims and aggressively asked to show their passes.The soldiers become comically deferential when they find out they are Jews. But at least one of them has been shot!

What will bring it home to Bruria Keren that if you dress in such a bizarre way, that everyone turns round and looks at you in the street, you are not a modest retiring type who only wants to fade into the background? Why would you want to say, ''Hey, look at me, I'm too self effacing for my wig''? It's a perverse and pathetic cry for attention.
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Moritz



Joined: 10 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In 2013, in a great concession, girls at an Orthodox high school in New York were allowed to wear tefillin at morning prayers. I think this may mean phylacteries. Or is it prayer shawls? Dafydd will know.[/b]


Indeed phylacteries: leather boxes containing scripture verses tied to head and left arm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:35 pm    Post subject: phylactery Reply with quote

An anti-Semite wanted to know the mysteries of the Jews. One day, in a frenzy, he tore a phylactery open and ripped out the square of parchment to see what was written on it. It said, 'Help! I am being held prisoner in a phylactery factory.'
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:20 pm    Post subject: it hurts! Reply with quote

I've often thought that while no religion should be encouraged, compared to its daughter religions ie Christianity and Islam, Judaism looks rather innocuous, especially if you divorce it from Zionism and its discontents. But as it says in 'Y Geiriadur Mawr', 'Too much of anything is not good.'

I've recently seen an article by an ex-Haredi. According to her, Haredi rabbis make appeals which amount to emotional blackmail in which they implore women to shave their heads, not leaving a sprouting follicle behind. They follow this guilt trip up by telling the females in the congregation that their children will be consigned to Hell if they don't comply.

The ex-Haredi's nieghbours spied on her and wrung details about her head out of the local mikveh attendant. They found out that she had become lax and now wore her own hair under a snood.

Both she and her husband were excommunicated, and her son was crossed off the list for the yeshiva he had been put down for. A lot of rabbis think that merely having an uglifying wig is not good enough. A truly frum woman would have a drab headscarf on top of it.

These male supremacist rabbis have encouraged females to efface themselves for their own selfish ends. Yes, they have a point that the frumka is a fetish. I'm not sure it's a sexual fetish, but it represents an unhealthy attitude to one's own identity.

But Haredi rabbis should be big enough to accept some responsibility. Everyone wants recognition. If the only thing they are allowed to pride themselves on is their humility, you will get aggressively competitive humility, as absurd as it sounds.

I visualise Keren's disciples appearing on Israel's Got Talent in frumkas over dozens of layers of clothes and doing a song and dance routine with the refrain: '' I'm too self effacing for my skirt! I'm too self effacing for my wig! I'm so self effacing it hurts! I'm a self effacement bomb!''

The rabbinate has oppressed women for long enough, thinking it useful to have a caste of robotic housekeepers to hoover up the crumbs while they lull themselves into a doze over the Babylonian Talmud. Now they are reaping the whirlwind.


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dai



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The judge then asked the defendant " This woman that you just hit -_I understand that she"s a Muslim - or at least a little bit ? "_" Well I would say she is a bugger_Walking our streets whilst wearing a bourkha -_I mean - look at the way she dresses : she was asking for it ! "

The judge then asked the defendant " This woman that you just hit -_
I understand that she is a Muslim - or at least a little bit ? "_
" Well I would say she is a bugger_
Walking our streets whilst wearing a bourkha -_
I mean - look at the way she dresses : she was asking for it ! "

dai repwblic = Dai Saw = David B Lawrence : the author asserts the moral right - not to sue for copyright !


[ I had better explain that for a foreign audience lest it is taken to be anti-Islamic : mysogenistic prejudice in Wales - and Western Europe - often has thin excuses to legitimise violence against women and the almost unversal excuse for assault - especially a sexual assault - is that the woman is dressed in some sexually provocative way ... My own objection to the oft quoted explanation for the bourkha etc is that these things are worn to not sexually entice men - and my response to that is that as men we are responsible for ourselves and that responsibility can not be transferred to women ... On the other hand there is the matter of not pushing your luck - male or female - in being e.g. incapably drunk in situations that might lead to saying and doing things we may later regret ... as to how much some Eastern women conceal with clothing - typically I suspect for cosmetic reasons in very sunsoaked climates in order to maintain a paler skin - some Western women conceal even more with the cosmetics which they apply to their faces : by the time that some have finished off their " slap " ready to go out they have inserted coloured contact lenses and about all that used to be seen of their actual faces were the whites of their eyes - until they recently started to adjust these also with various sprays ...

... It seems to be a pretty universal phenomena that women do these things and not to do with presenting themselves to men either : certainly here in Wales men are notoriously indifferent and unaware of women changing their appearances - yet in Wales women spend more on cosmetics than any other country in Europe except France - which is another notoriously mysogynistic society ... Some men treat Some women badly and generally they justify what they do by virtue of the fact that they are men and that is how women are treated - and the women accept being badly treated because they are women and that is how men treat them. I once had a partner who worked for Women's Aid and so I was invited to the office party : I ended up sitting in the yard in the rain in order to avoid punching any of them - most wholly blamed men but these women were locked into the patterns of behaviour that were about provoking men to do them violence ... It is not pleasant to encounter such people and I see the same patterns of behaviour in Democratic politics which notably deploys all sorts of military language : they go all out to win their " campaigns " but their wars are never over - they just wreck our societies over and over again for the sake of their limp egos.]

---------------------

( next day ) - I just started to distribute that proem & I now I hesitate : a better rhythm ?

The judge then asked the defendant " This woman that you just hit -_
I understand that she is a Muslim - or at least a little bit ? "_
" Well I would say she is a bugger_
Walking our streets whilst wearing a bourkha -_
I mean - look at the way she was dressed : she was asking for it ! "

= dai repwblic = Dai Saw = David B Lawrence : the author asserts his moral right - not to sue for copyright ! =

http://repwblic.informe.com/viewtopic.php?p=4091#4091


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Well ... proetry tends to get its rhythms from our modes of speech and thus our moods as we recite it ...

[ #4 ]

The judge then asked the defendant " This woman that you just hit -_
I understand that she is a Muslim - or at least a little bit ? "_
" Well ... I would say that she is a bugger -_
Walking around our streets in a bourkha -_
I mean ... look at the way that she is dressed : begging for it ! "

= dai repwblic = Dai Saw = David B Lawrence : the author asserts his moral right - not to sue for copyright !

= http://repwblic.informe.com/viewtopic.php?p=4091#4091


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:09 am    Post subject: gong Reply with quote

A recent article tells of a woman who was assaulted in the street for wearing a burqa. I hasten to add I don't approve of this, and I hope nothing I've written here could encourage this sort of behaviour.

When make up became usual for ordinary women as opposed to actresses or the demi monde, we heard a lot about how these shameless hussies had the nerve to go out like that. In fact, if you need heavy make up all the time, you're probably not very confident, and don't feel able to present your real face to the world. The last thing you have is bare faced cheek!

I don't want to be puritanical, and moan about gilding the lily, although my partner does say, ''Why paint a picture of an orchid on an orchid?''

But I remember as a schoolkid, at the end of term when real lessons had wound down, I wandered into a friend's class room. The boys were discussing with the teacher whether might was right.

I thought this was vacuous. Of course it isn't; next question.

But it was scintillating compared to the discourse among the girls at the back of the class about make up. It was so boring and depressing, it nearly sent me into a coma.

I decided not to bother with make up at all. If I once started, I would be always buying it. I had hardly any money, and wanted to spend what I had on books and music.

Jackie magazine advised girls to spend all their money on make up, and borrow records from their boyfriends. I didn't agree.

A friend later said I had such a fresh complexion, I didn't need make up anyway. It was true I had beautiful skin, ruddy yet translucent.

Now I am middle aged with slightly crapey skin, I still can't be bothered with make up. Perhaps it is useful for older women, but I really think that with younger ones, it often robs their faces of character.

I can understand that some of the inmates in women's refuges would be emotionally damaged and present as quite horrible. I discuss this in 'Bid My Anxious Fears Subside' also under 'Women's Forum.'

Why the staff are also obnoxious - which I have also found them to be - is a mystery to me. I don't think they should be doing the job, but this is the kind of person who always gets the job.

Generally, both the staff and inmates will be bullies, and the inmates who are not, will be victimised. I suppose your partner was at Taff Refuge.

While I don't recommend or exactly condone getting into violent exchanges, they can be almost impossible to avoid. Again, I can understand the toxic culture among the inmates, but can't account for why it obtains among the staff.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:26 am    Post subject: the generalissimo Reply with quote

In an episode of the much loved 70s TV comedy, 'Fawlty Towers', a guest comes in and asks Manuel where the boss is. Manuel looks blank.

The guest tries, 'the generalissimo'. Manuel looks shocked and says, ''He is in Madrid.'' For Franco's fascist regime persisted until his death in the 70s. It was he who thought it would be an excellent idea to transform Benidorm from a small fishing village to a tourist colony to encourage foreign visitors.

But he did not think of relaxing the rather stringent laws on personal presentation. Tourists came back, repeating in a dazed way that it was illegal to wear a bikini in Spain.

Dafydd tells me the local women had an ingenious way of dealing with this. If policemen hove up to them on the beach to arrest them for wearing bikinis, they shrugged insouciantly, and took the top part of the costume off.

They were now technically not wearing bikinis. They were topless.

The police retreated in confusion. It did not compute. They had not received any instructions about arresting topless women!
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:30 am    Post subject: cata Reply with quote

Anjem Choudary appeared on Revelation TV to denounce much in Christian history. He twice mentioned Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand who had tried to cleanse Spain of Muslims and Jews.

That this couple known to their compatriots as Fernando and Isabel were the pits is one of the few things that Muslims and Jews can agree on. But the Catholic Sovereigns were admired as 'athletes of Christ' by other Christians in their own day, and Isabel is still a thorny candidate for canonisation.

In 1501, excitement was at fever pitch as they had graciously endorsed Harri Tudor's new dynasty to the extent of agreeing to give their youngest daughter Catalina to Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales, in one of the business like arranged marriages of the day. Word went round that Catalina's fleet had landed at Plymouth.

The locals rushed down to the quay, eager to see what she looked like. They were disappointed. The fanatically Catholic infanta was covered in a burqa from head to toe. It made it difficult for her to eat at the banquet laid on by Sir Willoughby de Broke. She had to give the clotted cream a miss.

Harri Tudor was disconcerted to be told by Catalina's duenna, Dona Elvira Manuel that no one would be allowed to see her charge unveiled until the last benediction had been pronounced on her marriage to Arthur.

Harri had little doubt that the Catholic Sovereigns were trying to pull a fast one somehow. He held a council in a rainy field to discuss the subject. The conclusion was that he was king in his own realm. He could order the infanta to unveil, and he did.

Catalina's older sisters had not worn burqas in the run up to their arranged marriages. But in two cases this led to scandal. The marriages had been consummated before they happened. It was probably this that Isabel had wanted to avoid.

Isabel was one of the few women ever to wear a suit of armour during the invasion of the Muslim emirate of Granada. Her attitude to costume reflected double think typical of her. She often dressed ostentatiously with jewels the size of tennis balls. At other times she bragged to Torquemada that she had no vanity about clothes. She sometimes wore a burqa herself.

Arthur hardly survived the wedding by four months. After a lot of fuss, Catalina married his younger brother Henry viii.

To the British, she is usually known as Katherine of Aragon. Her daughter Bloody Mary was as bigoted and fanatical a Catholic as they come. Her mother had given her a Spanish tutor Juan Luis Vives who was in favour of women wearing mobile shrouds. He said, 'they should leave scarcely an eye open to see the way.'

The most obvious explanation is that, hating Islam as they did, Christian Spaniards nevertheless picked up the most blatant Islamic dress codes, apparently without even noticing it. Into the twentieth century, older women in Spain would wear quite long black dresses and black headscarves habitually, as if in mourning. This could also be seen in Greece and Yugoslavia where Islam had also made an impact.

When package holidays to Spain became popular in the 70s, foreigners noted in disbelief that if you made a date with a local girl, she would have to be chaperoned. Often her entire family including her elderly grandmother came along.

In Franco's day, it was illegal not to be a Roman Catholic. The Muslim Moors had long been expelled, leaving their breath taking architecture behind them. But they had left not only their genes but their memes. This was a place where Islam and Catholicism had shaded into each other.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:47 am    Post subject: facey Reply with quote

A Muslim woman appeared on a Sunday morning TV show in a depressingly unattractive burqa to say that it was her own choice to wear it. She had something to say about the importance of not arousing men.

Somebody asked why men weren't required to cover up. Couldn't they arouse women? When Ayaan Hirsi Ali asked this as a teenager, she was laughed to scorn or told, ''In Islam, that is impossible.''

This woman did not stone wall the question. She admitted it was a fair point, but she did not linger on it. She cited Islamic scholars whose learned works she had consulted.

They had said a woman's face was the most attractive part of her body, and that was why it should be covered up. It reminded me of a book my sister bought in the late 70s.

It mentioned Muslim women bathing naked in a secluded spot. When they were disturbed by strangers, they rushed frantically to cover their faces - nothing else.

In this mindset, a woman's face is the most indecent part of her anatomy by far, putting a mere vulva for instance, into the shade. What are we to make of this?


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dai



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was not a refuge in Cardiff ... I think that although not everybody involved in Women's Aid fit this characature a fair number of them have been drawn into it because they have themselves been involved in emotionally abusive relationships : the absence of physical violence is not the abscence of this problem ... Most - both victims and perpetrators - are happy to get out of the relationship but then carry on behaving in the ways that lead to violence : these patterns of thought and behaviour are normal for them - they learn them from those around them and thoughtlessly transmit them to their children who are eager to copy their family's behaviour and are encouraged to do so by the adults who often justify themselves to the children by invoking all sorts of reasonings which they adapt from the cultures around them ...

When I talk of " Spirituality " I am referring to our Emotional reactions to our Sensations : long before a child has learned to speak they have had a whole series of experiences and no words are attached to them : we can not easily access those early experiences which have laid the foundations of our brains long before our minds begin to emerge out of the clouds of words that adults around us are supplying to label ideas with. We all suffer from this - yet we tend to believe that our minds are in command of our Consciousness and that by " winning " an argument over such a thing as the bourkha we can persuade others to agree with us and comply with our wishes. But all such arguments are conducted within our own individual understandings and even when we appear to agree with another by sharing a pattern of words derived from a shared culture we may in facts mean radically different things by those words. I suspect that underlying a lot of religious and political arguments are the same peer-pressures which seem to be fundamentally driven by not wishing to be alone - to avoid being marginalised individuals in the social conflict for resources e.g. women apparently argue that their dress and cosmetics are being deployed to attract men but men are in fact mostly indifferent to these in comparison to being attracted to women's personalities i.e. is this woman caring, intelligent and amusing ... more or less the same criteria that women judge men by.

But how do young men and women advertise what they mean by " caring, intelligent and amusing " to each other ? Well over the past decade in Wales tattoos for women have become the thing ; in other times and places it has been scarification, piercing body parts, hairstyles, foot-binding, ostentatiously extravagant clothing, ostentatiously minimal clothing ... there is a long list and it will get longer ... and there has been a long list of taboos or rather things which are deeply embedded inhibitions such as men not wearing high-heels and flowery skirts unless this is a deliberate transgression for comical purposes ... My own inhibition is about jewelry - not just for myself but also if my partner wears the stuff : I grimace and bear it - I know that for them this stuff is part of their sense of themselves ... but then equally they have to put up with the fact that in my squeemishness about such stuff any attempts to get me to wear cuff-links or accept the Rolex they just blew the house repair budget on will provoke reactions bordering on the hysterical ...
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