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GOT CARTA ? GET MAGNA ! Investigating The Late 12:15 Omnibus

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject: GOT CARTA ? GET MAGNA ! Investigating The Late 12:15 Omnibus Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05522c0/david-starkeys-magna-carta ... THIS HAS BEEN AVAILABLE FOR SEVERAL MONTHS BUT SOON WILL NOT BE.

David Starkey's Magna Carta

" We take our liberties for granted. They seem absolute and untouchable. But they are the result of a series of violent struggles fought over 800 years that, at times, have threatened to tear our society apart. On the frontline was a document originally inked on animal skin - Magna Carta. Distinguished constitutional historian David Starkey looks at the origins of the Great Charter, created in 1215 to check the abuses of King John - and how it nearly died at birth.

He explores its subsequent deployment, its contribution to making everyone - even the monarch - subject to the rule of law, and how this quintessentially English document migrated to the North American colonies and eventually became the foundation of the US constitution. Magna Carta has become a universal symbol of individual freedom against the tyranny of the state, but with ever-tightening government control on our lives, is it time to resurrect it ?

Starkey has a special encounter with an original Magna Carta manuscript at the British Library, one of only four from 1215 to survive. He also examines other unique medieval manuscripts that trace the tumultuous history of Magna Carta, the Article of the Barons listing their demands in June 1215, and the papal bull declaring Magna Carta null and void less than two months after it was sealed."





" ... Magna Carta - " The Great Charter " - so why all of the fuss ? Why are we so fixated upon this obscure Medieval Peace Settlement ? For the barons the clauses which really matter in Magna Carta dealt with their inheritance, marriages and ownership of land. These may seem remote now but they established what half the world, from Russia to China, still lacks : that the state can't help itself to private property at will.

And then there are the famous clauses which come best to symbolise the universal freedoms promised by Magna Carta : clauses thirty nine and forty - ' No Free Man shall be seized or imprisoned or stripped of his rights or possessions or outlawed or exiled or deprived of his standing in any other way nor will we proceed with force against him or send others to do so except by the lawful judgment of his equals or by the law of the land. To no-one shall we sell justice, to no-one deny or delay right of justice.'

There was - indeed there is - something here that really matters : the sense that Magna Carta protects and defines those three key fundamental freedoms of the Anglo-Saxon world - Life, Liberty and Property - is spot on."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNZosqiJISs - Tony Hancock's account of Magna Carta


Now given my disposition you can of course anticipate that I am going to want to have a negative attitude towards Magna Carta simply because such ridiculously sweeping claims are made for it, monuments are erected to celebrate it, an awful lot of people everywhere take it for granted with those same tones of hushed awe which they reserve for The Royals - and because it is one of those sacred cows which it is my duty as a Republican in Wales to slaughter. I must especially oppose it because it is one of the supposed pillars of The English Law in Wales which I ardently wish for us to be rid of and to replace with a legal system properly founded upon a systematic exposition of just laws and courts conducted upon the basis of inquisition not contention. In discussing this earlier one of the first comments made before I had begun to write this thread is that the reason why the barons confronted King John was because he was granting more rights to serfs i.e. undermining the basis of slavery in 13c England. In other words, there is an argument to be made out that King John was made into the villain by 19c historians and novelists because they worked for or had their audience in the Aristocracy which controlled The United Kingdom and which was strongly resisting the demands of The Democrats. Thus even the thuggish bandit Robin Hood received a makeover and was promoted to the Aristocracy rather than leave him to be claimed as a hero by the Democrats.

As to my anticipating that David Starkey might claim that Magna Carta is the basis for a " property owning Democracy " it is as well to note that in the mid 19c this was about the need to be a property owner in order to qualify for the privilege of voting. In the United States of America Magna Carta as a guarantee of The Right To Property was used to assert the right to own slaves and so it was certainly no guarantee for the kind of Liberty which David Starkey suggested and nor has it ever been proven to guarantee such Liberty or indeed any due legal process. The Government of The United Kingdom can still suspend not only such things as habeus corpus but in theory it can indeed suspend every law in the statute book and then go on to still pass Bills of Attainder to name individual persons and then individually to strip them of every right upheld for others, including The Right To Life. The truth is that within a matter of weeks or indeed minutes or seconds the signing of Magna Carta had served its purpose and therefore it was discarded ... it is of no practical legal use what so ever and it is merely referred to in conversation for its symbolic value and thus serves as The United Kingdom's holy relic and nothing more. Therefore from the point of view of this Republican in Wales the praise and adoration heaped upon " Magna Carta " is merely a form of Political Voodoo whose origins lie in the struggles between Aristocrats and Democrats in first Britain and then America.

There are of course some other documentaries being made to celebrate 800 years of this rubbish ...


... you know I never noticed " Ratus Ratus " wearing " a Republican hat " before ... at 21.30 ...

Last edited by dai on Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:56 am; edited 4 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The baron's names were on the scroll
Of Magna Carta - but it ain't droll :
That modern peasants don't think that queer -
That they don't understand that " trial by peer "
Means that the state is beyond any law ... loll ?

dai repWblic - Dai Saw - David B Lawrence - the author's moral right asserted - to not sue for copyright ( i.e. cite me as the author of these proems.)

I recently bought the following book intending to coax myself back into reading instead of ranting - but I am so knackered of recent I know that I will not take it in.

1215 - THE YEAR OF THE MAGNA CARTA - Danny Danziger & John Gillingham

" explores what it was like to be alive in that momentous year. Political power struggles are interwoven with other issues - fashion, food, education, medicine, religion, sex. Whether describing matters of state or domestic life, this is a treasure house of a book, rich in detail and full of enthralling insights into the medieval world."

AMAZON ARE OFFERING " 1215 - THE YEAR OF THE MAGNA CARTA " AS A USED PAPERBACK FROM ( £ 00.90 p ) - http://www.amazon.co.uk/1215-Magna-Carta-Danny-Danziger/dp/0340824751/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1434145889&sr=1-1&keywords=1215+the+year+of+magna+carta

NOW ... This weekend and the week thereafter there is apparently going to be many celebrations of the signing of Magna Carta on the 15th June 1215 ... VOODOO ?

http://www.historyextra.com/article/medieval/15-june-1215-true-date-magna-carta - THE WHOLE ARTICLE IS A WORTHWHILE READ.

Is 15 June 1215 the true date of Magna Carta ?

On 15 June 2015, the queen will visit Runnymede to celebrate the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta. But are we commemorating the sealing of the document on the correct day? Professors David Carpenter and George Garnett debate…

" Generally regarded as the 800th anniversary of the sealing of the landmark document, the date 15 June seems fixed by Magna Carta itself. King John ends the Charter by stating that it has been “ given by our hand in the meadow which is called Runnymede between Windsor and Staines on the 15th day of June in the 17th year of our reign.” ... That all seems clear enough, yet distinguished historians have argued that the 15 June date is nothing more than “ fictitious.” In their view, it took several more days for the details of the charter to be hammered out, and it was not till 19 June that John authorised its issue. If they are to be believed, the queen should hastily alter her diary and head to Runnymede not on Monday 15 June, but on Friday the 19th ! ... What, then, are the arguments against the 15 June date ? The most central is that it was not till 19 June that peace was actually made between John and his opponents. On this day, it’s said that John’s opponents re-entered his allegiance. This, so the argument goes, is incompatible with the charter being agreed on the 15th, for, if it was, there is an inexplicable hiatus before the peace on the 19th. ...

... The argument for a later date for Magna Carta was propounded by Sir James Holt ... George Garnett and John Hudson – two of Holt’s former pupils – have revived and reinforced his arguments. ... Their reconstruction is as follows : On 10 June, King John renewed the truce covering the negotiations, until the morning of 15 June. This created a ‘ deadline ’ for the reaching of some sort of preliminary deal. The deal was indeed achieved, and can be seen in a “ penultimate draft of the charter ” ( preserved in a later copy ) dated to 15 June, and “ given ” by John not at Runnymede, but at Windsor. ... It was this “penultimate draft” that gave its date to the charter, although negotiations continued until a final settlement was reached on the 19th. As evidence for their continuation, Garnett and Hudson cite a later copy of the charter, which bears the date 16 June and still has detailed differences from the final authorised version. ... It is not as though the dating clauses in royal charters were frozen and formulaic. The place and date changed constantly. Yet at Runnymede, if Garnett and Hudson are right, the document whose text was solemnly guaranteed by Langton and the bishops, was given the correct place for its authorisation (Runnymede) but was left with the wrong date – one four days too soon. ... "


David Carpenter ... professor of medieval history at King's College London, and author of Magna Carta ( Penguin Classics.)



So ... another sleepess night in the repWblic ... let me see what else the establishment hierarchy is posting about views that The Democrats want us to have of them ...


Magna Carta celebrations to begin on River Thames

A replica of Magna Carta is to be carried down the Thames as part of events to mark its 800th anniversary. ... The Royal Barge Gloriana will lead 200 boats from Hurley in Berkshire to Runnymede in Surrey over two days ... The pageant, which starts at 09:00 BST, has been organised by Thames Alive, with support from Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead, Runnymede borough and Spelthorne borough councils. ... The Queen's Diamond Jubilee barge, Gloriana, will be the flagship of the flotilla of boats. ... Twenty-three local people have been chosen as "charter bearers" to relay the document. ... Charter bearers, who live, work or study in one of the three boroughs, will carry the document on board the Royal Shallop Jubilant. ... As the copy of Magna Carta is transported downstream, actors will recount its story. ... The event will culminate with the unveiling of a 4m (13ft) bronze statue of the Queen at Runnymede Pleasure Grounds on Sunday. ... "


Magna Carta and the UK's newest citizens
- Peter Henley Political editor, South of England

" ... The Salisbury copy of Magna Carta is thought to be the best of the four remaining copies on display in the UK. [ THERE CAN BE NO GOOD COPIES - IT WAS NEVER WORTH THE PARCHMENT IT WAS WRITTEN ON ] ... And the 800 year-old bill of British rights has a huge emotional impact on some of the tourists who come to see it. ... [ IT WAS NOT EVEN AN ENGLISH BILL OF RIGHTS - IT WAS A BILL OF RIGHTS FOR A FEW HUNDRED WHO POSSESSED SUFFICIENT PROPERTY TO HAVE THE MEANS TO MOUNT A CIVIL WAR : BASICALLY IT ONLY GUARANTEED THE RIGHTS OF THE TWENTY FIVE BARONS INTO WHOSE HANDS IT DELIVERED THE KINGDOM ] ... At the Cathedral this week one of the guides told me he often sees visitors from America or Australia coming out of the historic Chapter House in tears. ... [ VOODOO ] ... Could it be that in this country we have become so used to our inheritance of freedom and the rule of law that we take it for granted ? ... [ I DO NOT THINK THAT WAS INTENDED AS A JOKE ... VOODOO ...


... We were in Salisbury to see 30 new citizens from Dorset and Wiltshire being given their British passports. ... The modern citizenship process involves them passing a multiple choice test. ... [ I SUSPECT THAT THE TEST IS AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE SUBMISSIVE ENOUGH TO GRATEFULLY JUST ACCEPT THE LOUSY CHOICES PUT BEFORE YOU AND NOT ASK ANY AWKWARD QUESTIONS : WHICH BOXES THEY TICK HARDLY MATTERS ] ... most importantly these 30 people had chosen the United Kingdom over all other countries in the world as their new home. They value the basic truth of Magna Carta, still alive in our beliefs and values as well as our systems of government. ... [ VOODOO BUT WITH A CERTAIN DEGREE OF TRUTH-TELLING : MAGNA CARTA LICENCES THE GOVERNMENT TO HOLD ITSELF TO BE UNACCOUNTABLE - NOT EVEN THOSE ELEVATED TO THE HOUSE OF LORDS ARE DEEMED TO BE THE PEERS OF PRIME MINISTERS AND THOSE AROUND THEM, ELECTED OR APPOINTED OR OTHERWISE ] ...

... Magna Carta set basic standards such as no detention without the right to a trial by your peers and the end of forced marriage in a time when widows were regularly compelled into an unwanted union. ... [ YET THIS BASIC STANDARD IS NOT BEING MET, IF IT EVER WAS BEING MET ] ... Yes, only "free men" were granted these privileges, and King John ignored many of his concessions while monarchy and wider civil government had to be held to account over and over right up to the suffragettes and beyond. But this was the start. [ HE MEANS THAT THIS PROCESS WAS STARTED BY THE KING WRITING HIS SIGNATURE UPON MAGNA CARTA, WITHOUT MENTIONING THAT IT STOPPED BEFORE THE INK HAD DRIED ] ... Celebrating Magna Carta is celebrating the fact that power was no longer vested solely in an individual, but in the country itself - it was no longer the King's law, now it was the law of the land. ... [ NO. " THE LAW OF THE LAND " ALREADY EXISTED, EITHER IN TERMS OF COMMON LAW OR IN " JUS SOLI " AND IT PREDATED THE NORMAN INVASION : THE ENGLISH LAW STILL STATES THAT ALL LAND BELONGS TO THE CROWN, BY RIGHT OF CONQUEST ] ... And that land is ours. ... [ ACTUALLY " THE CROWN " NOW OWES MORE MONEY THAN THE ISLAND IS WORTH AND WHAT THE PEOPLE IN WALES, ENGLAND, SCOTLAND, IRELAND ETC HAVE IS A MASSIVE DEBT TO PAY OFF MORTGAGED AGAINST A LAND WHICH THEY CAN NEVER OWN : WE ARE ENSLAVED TO THE CORPORATIONS AND WE HAVE THE STATUS OF LIVESTOCK ON A BADLY MANAGED FARM, HELD READY FOR BEING SENT TO MARKET AS COLLATERAL UPON THE DEBT.] ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._V._Dicey ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Unionist_Party

" ... Albert Venn "A. V." Dicey ( 4 February 1835 – 7 April 1922 ) ... Dicey popularised the phrase " rule of law," although its use goes back to the 17th century ... [ I.E. A V DICEY WAS EMPLOYED TO PROMULGATE THE CORRUPTION OF THE MEANING OF " THE RULE OF LAW " ] ... He argued that the UK Parliament was "an absolutely sovereign legislature" with the "right to make or unmake any law". ... [ I.E. A V DICEY PROUDLY ARGUED THAT THE POLITICAL SYSTEM CALLED THE UNITED KINGDOM NOT ONLY HAS THE RIGHT TO LEGISLATE TO ALLOW IMMORAL AND UNETHICAL BEHAVIOUR BUT THAT IT HAS A DUTY ENFORCE IT ALSO.] ... Dicey was a Liberal Unionist and a vigorous opponent of Home Rule for Ireland ... Dicey was also vehemently opposed to women's suffrage, proportional representation ... regarded blacks as " ignorant and scarcely civilized " ... Dicey viewed the necessity of establishing a stable legal system as more important than the potential injustice that would occur from following unjust laws. In spite of this, he did concede that there were circumstances in which it would be appropriate to resort to an armed rebellion but stated that such occasions are most extremely rare. ... [ I.E. A V DICEY ENDORSED THE IDEA OF THE USE OF A MILITARY COUP AND OF PARAMILITARY ORGANISATIONS TO RESIST POLITICAL REFORM IN IRELAND.] ... advocating that no concessions be made to Irish nationalism in relation to the government of any part of Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom. "

[ R.E. THE ORIGINS OF THE CONSERVATIVE AND UNIONIST PARTY : THE LIBERAL UNIONIST PARTY OF WHICH A V DICEY WAS THE POLITICAL THEORIST ] ... The Liberal Unionist Party was a British political party that was formed in 1886 by a faction that broke away from the Liberal Party. Led by Lord Hartington (later the Duke of Devonshire) and Joseph Chamberlain, the party formed a political alliance with the Conservative Party in opposition to Irish Home Rule. The two parties formed the ten-year-long, coalition Unionist Government 1895–1905 but kept separate political funds and their own party organisations until a complete merger was agreed in May 1912. ... The anti-Home Rule Liberals formed a 'Committee for the Preservation of the Union' in early 1886 and were soon joined by a smaller radical faction led by Joseph Chamberlain and John Bright. ... When the dissident Liberals eventually formed the Liberal Unionist Council, which was to become the Liberal Unionist party, Chamberlain organised the separate National Radical Union in Birmingham. ... Lloyd George had been due to go to the first meeting of the National Radical Union in Birmingham but got his dates mixed up and arrived on the wrong day. Years later, in 1901, Lloyd George was to go to Birmingham once more but as a fierce critic of Chamberlain and the Boer War ... " [ I AM SURPRISED BY THIS : I TEND TO THINK OF " RADICALS " AS " REPUBLICANS NOT WILLING TO UTTER THEIR NAME " - BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENCE GOING ON IN IRELAND. ]
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Melvyn was Bragging about the Mangled Chatter earlier this year in a series of four programmes on BBC Radio 4 -

The Road to Magna Carta - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04wtchv

Melvyn Bragg begins a major new series marking the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta, one of the best known of all historical documents. In this first programme he explores the world of medieval England, examining the political turmoil and confused legal system which resulted in a major crisis in the early 13th century. He charts the developments that culminated in a tense stand-off between King John and his barons in 1215 - the backdrop to the agreement of Magna Carta later that year.

Runnymede, 1215 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04wtwfn

Melvyn Bragg explores the events of 1215 and the dispute between King John and his barons which led to the issuing of one of the most important documents in English history. As England descended into what seemed an inevitable civil war, a group of rebellious noblemen forced the English king to the negotiating table. Melvyn visits Canterbury, seat of Archbishop Stephen Langton, one of the key figures in the peace negotiations, and comes face to face with the document sealed on the field at Runnymede on June 15th, 1215: Magna Carta.

The Aftermath of Runnymede - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04wwcnm

Melvyn Bragg looks at the consequences of the agreement thrashed out between King John and his barons at Runnymede in the summer of 1215. Magna Carta, a charter settling a dispute between the king and a group of rebels, was agreed on June 19th. Yet within a few weeks the agreement had failed, and both sides disavowed it. So how did a failed peace treaty turn into the best known legal document in the English-speaking world? Melvyn Bragg looks at the complex politics of thirteenth-century England and discovers how John's Great Charter was revived and reinvented over the course of the next hundred years.

The Legacy of Magna Carta - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04wwkh8

Melvyn Bragg looks at the rich legacy of Magna Carta, examining the ways in which it has influenced ideas of liberty, human rights and even political systems. King John's Great Charter, formally agreed in a field at Runnymede in 1215, became a cause celebre during the English Civil War and later exerted a crucial influence on American constitutional thought. 800 years after it was sealed, Magna Carta remains a document of global importance.

That was a bit lazy, was it not ? I guess that most of The Republicans in Wales and The World will want to - and ought to - only listen to the fourth ... but ... I have a bit of Welsh history in mind for a future bit of this, so I would like you to listen to the third programme which is definitely not The Light Programme ... there is most definitely a lack of The Light in this ... meanwhile, here is the original txt lol ;-) ... I must send Wikipedia another donation ... soon ... ish ... shush ! ...

AN AUDIOBOOK - https://librivox.org/magna-carta/



( Latin text and translation in McKechnie, Magna Carta, second edition, pp. 185–479, passim.)

John, by the grace of God, king of England, lord of Ireland, duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and count of Anjou, to the archbishops, bishops, abbots, earls, barons, justiciars, foresters, sheriffs, stewards, servants, and to all his bailiffs and liege subjects, greeting. Know that, having regard to God and for the salvation of our soul, and those of all our ancestors and heirs, and unto the honor of God and the advancement of holy church, and for the reform of our realm, by advice of our venerable fathers, Stephen archbishop of Canterbury, primate of all England and cardinal of the holy Roman Church, Henry archbishop of Dublin, William of London, Peter of Winchester, Jocelyn of Bath and Glastonbury, Hugh of Lincoln, Walter of Worcester, William of Coventry, Benedict of Rochester, bishops; of master Pandulf, subdeacon and member of the household of our lord the Pope, of brother Aymeric ( master of the Knights of the Temple in England ), and of the illustrious men William Marshall earl of Pembroke, William earl of Salisbury, William earl Warenne, William earl of Arundel, Alan of Galloway ( constable of Scotland ), Waren Fitz Gerald, Peter Fitz Herbert, Hubert de Burgh ( seneschal of Poitou ), Hugh de Neville, Matthew Fitz Herbert, Thomas Basset, Alan Basset, Philip d'Aubigny, Robert of Roppesley, John Marshall, John Fitz Hugh, and others, our liegemen.

1. In the first place we have granted to God, and by this our present charter confirmed for us and our heirs for ever that the English church shall be free, and shall have her rights entire, and her liberties inviolate; and we will that it be thus observed; which is apparent from this that the freedom of elections, which is reckoned most important and very essential to the English church, we, of our pure and unconstrained will, did grant, and did by our charter confirm and did obtain the ratification of the same from our lord. Pope Innocent III, before the quarrel arose between us and our barons : and this we will observe, and our will is that it be observed in good faith by our heirs for ever. We have also granted to all freemen of our kingdom, for us and our heirs for ever, all the underwritten liberties, to be had and held by them and their heirs, of us and our heirs for ever.

2. If any of our earls or barons, or others holding of us in chief by military service shall have died, and at the time of his death his heir shall be of full age and owe "relief" he shall have his inheritance on payment of the ancient relief, namely the heir or heirs of an earl, £100 for a whole earl's barony; the heir or heirs of a baron, £100 for a whole barony; the heir or heirs of a knight, 100s. at most for a whole knight's fee; and whoever owes less let him give less, according to the ancient custom of fiefs.

3. If, however, the heir of any of the aforesaid has been under age and in wardship, let him have his inheritance without relief and without fine when he comes of age.

4. The guardian of the land of an heir who is thus under age, shall take from the land of the heir nothing but reasonable produce, reasonable customs, and reasonable services, and that without destruction or waste of men or goods; and if we have committed the wardship of the lands of any such minor to the sheriff, or to any other who is responsible to us for its issues, and he has made destruction or waste of what he holds in wardship, we will take of him amends, and the land shall be committed to two lawful and discreet men of that fee, who shall be responsible for the issues to us or to him to whom we shall assign them; and if we have given or sold the wardship of any such land to any one and he has therein made destruction or waste, he shall lose that wardship, and it shall be transferred to two lawful and discreet men of that fief, who shall be responsible to us in like manner as aforesaid.

5. The guardian, moreover, so long as he has the wardship of the land, shall keep up the houses, parks, fishponds, stanks, mills, and other things pertaining to the land, out of the issues of the same land; and he shall restore to the heir, when he has come to full age, all his land, stocked with ploughs and "waynage," according as the season of husbandry shall require, and the issues of the land can reasonably bear.

6. Heirs shall be married without disparagement, yet so that before the marriage takes place the nearest in blood to that heir shall have notice.

7. A widow, after the death of her husband, shall forthwith and without difficulty have her marriage portion and inheritance; nor shall she give anything for her dower, or for her marriage portion, or for the inheritance which her husband and she held on the day of the death of that husband; and she may remain in the house of her husband for forty days after his death, within which time her dower shall be assigned to her.

8. No widow shall be compelled to marry, so long as she prefers to live without a husband; provided always that she gives security not to marry without our consent, if she holds of us, or without the consent of the lord of whom she holds, if she holds of another.

9. Neither we nor our bailiffs shall seize any land or rent for any debt, so long as the chattels of the debtor are sufficient to repay the debt; nor shall the sureties of the debtor be distrained so long as the principal debtor is able to satisfy the debt; and if the principal debtor shall fail to pay the debt, having nothing wherewith to pay it, then the sureties shall answer for the debt; and let them have the lands and rents of the debtor, if they desire them, until they are indemnified for the debt which they have paid for him, unless the principal debtor can show proof that he is discharged thereof as against the said sureties

10. If one who has borrowed from the Jews any sum, great or small, die before that loan can be repaid, the debt shall not bear interest while the heir is under age, of whomsoever he may hold; and if the debt fall into our hands, we will not take anything except the principal sum contained in the bond.

11. And if any one die indebted to the Jews, his wife shall have her dower and pay nothing of that debt; and if any children of the deceased are left under age, necessaries shall be provided for them in keeping with the holding of the deceased; and out of the residue the debt shall be paid, reserving, however, service due to feudal lords; in like manner let it be done touching debts due to others than Jews.

12. No scutage nor aid shall be imposed on our kingdom, unless by common counsel of our kingdom, except for ransoming our person, for making our eldest son a knight, and for once marrying our eldest daughter; and for these there shall not be levied more than a reasonable aid. In like manner it shall be done concerning aids from the city of London.

13. And the city of London shall have all its ancient liberties and free customs, as well by land as by water; furthermore, we decree and grant that all other cities, boroughs, towns, and ports shall have all their liberties and free customs.

14. And for obtaining the common counsel of the kingdom anent the assessing of an aid ( except in the three cases aforesaid ) or of a scutage, we will cause to be summoned the archbishops, bishops, abbots, earls, and greater barons, severally by our letters; and we will moreover cause to be summoned generally, through our sheriffs and bailiffs, all others who hold of us in chief, for a fixed date, namely, after the expiry of at least forty days, and at a fixed place; and in all letters of such summons we will specify the reason of the summons. And when the summons has thus been made, the business shall proceed on the day appointed, according to the counsel of such as are present, although not all who were summoned have come.

15. We will not for the future grant to any one license to take an aid from his own free tenants, except to ransom his body, to make his eldest son a knight, and once to marry his eldest daughter; and on each of these occasions there shall be levied only a reasonable aid.

16. No one shall be distrained for performance of greater service for a knight's fee, or for any other free tenement, than is due therefrom.

17. Common pleas shall not follow our court, but shall be held in some fixed place.

18. Inquests of novel disseisin, of mort d'ancestor, and of darrein presentment, shall not be held elsewhere than in their own county courts and that in manner following,—We, or, if we should be out of the realm, our chief justiciar, will send two justiciars through every county four times a year, who shall, along with four knights of the county chosen by the county, hold the said assize in the county court, on the day and in the place of meeting of that court.

19. And if any of the said assizes cannot be taken on the day of the county court, let there remain of the knights and freeholders, who were present at the county court on that day, as many as may be required for the efficient making of judgments, according as the business be more or less.

20. A freeman shall not be amerced for a slight offense, except in accordance with the degree of the offense; and for a grave offense he shall be amerced in accordance with the gravity of the offense, yet saving always his "contenement"; and a merchant in the same way, saving his "merchandise"; and a villein shall be amerced in the same way, saving his "wainage"—if they have fallen into our mercy: and none of the aforesaid amercements shall be imposed except by the oath of honest men of the neighborhood.

21. Earls and barons shall not be amerced except through their peers, and only in accordance with the degree of the offense.

22. A clerk shall not be amerced in respect of his lay holding except after the manner of the others aforesaid; further, he shall not be amerced in accordance with the extent of his ecclesiastical benefice.

23. No village or individual shall be compelled to make bridges at river-banks, except those who from of old were legally bound to do so.

24. No sheriff, constable, coroners, or others of our bailiffs, shall hold pleas of our Crown.

25. All counties, hundreds, wapentakes, and trithings (except our demesne manors) shall remain at the old rents, and without any additional payment.

26. If any one holding of us a lay fief shall die, and our sheriff or bailiff shall exhibit our letters patent of summons for a debt which the deceased owed to us, it shall be lawful for our sheriff or bailiff to attach and catalogue chattels of the deceased, found upon the lay fief, to the value of that debt, at the sight of law-worthy men, provided always that nothing whatever be thence removed until the debt which is evident shall be fully paid to us; and the residue shall be left to the executors to fulfil the will of the deceased; and if there be nothing due from him to us, all the chattels shall go to the deceased, saving to his wife and children their reasonable shares.

27. If any freeman shall die intestate, his chattels shall be distributed by the hands of his nearest kinsfolk and friends, under supervision of the church, saving to every one the debts which the deceased owed to him.

28. No constable or other bailiff of ours shall take corn or other provisions from any one without immediately tendering money therefor, unless he can have postponement thereof by permission of the seller.

29. No constable shall compel any knight to give money in lieu of castle-guard, when he is willing to perform it in his own person, or ( if he cannot do it from any reasonable cause ) then by another responsible man. Further, if we have led or sent him upon military service, he shall be relieved from guard in proportion to the time during which he has been on service because of us.

30. No sheriff or bailiff of ours, or other person, shall take the horses or carts of any freeman for transport duty, against the will of the said freeman. ( Especially no one should offend against the biggest carter.)

31. Neither we nor our bailiffs shall take, for our castles or for any other work of ours, wood which is not ours, against the will of the owner of that wood.

32. We will not retain beyond one year and one day, the lands of those who have been convicted of felony, and the lands shall thereafter be handed over to the lords of the fiefs.

33. All kiddles for the future shall be removed altogether from Thames and Medway, and throughout all England, except upon the seashore. ( We don't need no dark sarcasm - preachers : leave them kiddles alone ! )

34. The writ which is called præcipe shall not for the future be issued to any one, regarding any tenement whereby a freeman may lose his court.

35. Let there be one measure of wine throughout our whole realm; and one measure of ale; and one measure of corn, to wit, "the London quarter"; and one width of cloth ( whether dyed, or russet, or "halberget"), to wit, two ells within the selvages; of weights also let it be as of measures.

36. Nothing in future shall be given or taken for a writ of inquisition of life or limbs, but freely it shall be granted, and never denied.

37. If any one holds of us by fee-farm, by socage, or by burgage, and holds also land of another lord by knight's service, we will not ( by reason of that fee-farm, socage, or burgage ) have the wardship of the heir, or of such land of his as is of the fief of that other; nor shall we have wardship of that fee-farm, socage, or burgage, unless such fee-farm owes knight's service. We will not by reason of any small serjeanty which any one may hold of us by the service of rendering to us knives, arrows, or the like, have wardship of his heir or of the land which he holds of another lord by knight's service.

38. No bailiff for the future shall, upon his own unsupported complaint, put any one to his "law," without credible witnesses brought for this purpose.

39. No freeman shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or exiled or in any way destroyed, nor will we go upon him nor send upon him, [color=darkred]except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.[/color]

40. To no one will we sell, to no one will we refuse or delay, right or justice.

41. All merchants shall have safe and secure exit from England, and entry to England, with the right to tarry there and to move about as well by land as by water, for buying and selling by the ancient and right customs, quit from all evil tolls, except ( in time of war ) such merchants as are of the land at war with us. And if such are found in our land at the beginning of the war, they shall be detained, without injury to their bodies or goods, until information be received by us, or by our chief justiciar, how the merchants of our land found in the land at war with us are treated; and if our men are safe there, the others shall be safe in our land.

42. It shall be lawful in future for any one ( excepting always those imprisoned or outlawed in accordance with the law of the kingdom, and natives of any country at war with us, and merchants, who shall be treated as is above provided ) to leave our kingdom and to return, safe and secure by land and water, except for a short period in time of war, on grounds of public policy—reserving always the allegiance due to us.

43. If any one holding of some escheat ( such as the honor of Wallingford, Nottingham, Boulogne, Lancaster, or of other escheats which are in our hands and are baronies ) shall die, his heir shall give no other relief, and perform no other service to us than he would have done to the baron, if that barony had been in the baron's hand; and we shall hold it in the same manner in which the baron held it.

44. Men who dwell without the forest need not henceforth come before our justiciars of the forest upon a general summons, except those who are impleaded, or who have become sureties for any person or persons attached for forest offenses.

45. We will appoint as justices, constables, sheriffs, or bailiffs only such as know the law of the realm and mean to observe it well.

46. All barons who have founded abbeys, concerning which they hold charters from the kings of England, or of which they have long-continued possession, shall have the wardship of them, when vacant, as they ought to have.

47. All forests that have been made such in our time shall forthwith be disafforested; and a similar course shall be followed with regard to river-banks that have been placed "in defense" by us in our time.

48. All evil customs connected with forests and warrens, foresters and warreners, sheriffs and their officers, river-banks and their wardens, shall immediately be inquired into in each county by twelve sworn knights of the same county chosen by the honest men of the same county, and shall, within forty days of the said inquest, be utterly abolished, so as never to be restored, provided always that we previously have intimation thereof, or our justiciar, if we should not be in England.

49. We will immediately restore all hostages and charters delivered to us by Englishmen, as sureties of the peace or of faithful service.

50. We will entirely remove from their bailiwicks, the relations of Gerard of Athée ( so that in future they shall have no bailiwick in England ); namely, Engelard of Cigogné, Peter, Guy, and Andrew of Chanceaux, Guy of Cigogné, Geoffrey of Martigny with his brothers, Philip Mark with his brothers and his nephew Geoffrey, and the whole brood of the same.

51. As soon as peace is restored, we will banish from the kingdom all foreign-born knights, cross-bowmen, serjeants, and mercenary soldiers, who have come with horses and arms to the kingdom's hurt.

52. If any one has been dispossessed or removed by us, without the legal judgment of his peers, from his lands, castles, franchises, or from his right, we will immediately restore them to him; and if a dispute arise over this, then let it be decided by the five-and-twenty barons of whom mention is made below in the clause for securing the peace. Moreover, for all those possessions, from which any one has, without the lawful judgment of his peers, been disseised or removed, by our father, King Henry, or by our brother, King Richard, and which we retain in our hand ( or which are possessed by others, to whom we are bound to warrant them ) we shall have respite until the usual term of crusaders; excepting those things about which a plea has been raised, or an inquest made by our order, before our taking of the cross; but as soon as we return from our expedition ( or if perchance we desist from the expedition ) we will immediately grant full justice therein.

53. We shall have, moreover, the same respite and in the same manner in rendering justice concerning the disafforestation or retention of those forests which Henry our father and Richard our brother afforested, and concerning the wardship of lands which are of the fief of another (namely, such wardships as we have hitherto had by reason of a fief which any one held of us by knight's service), and concerning abbeys founded on other fiefs than our own, in which the lord of the fief claims to have right; and when we have returned, or if we desist from our expedition, we will immediately grant full justice to all who complain of such things.

54. No one shall be arrested or imprisoned upon the appeal of a woman, for the death of any other than her husband.

55. All fines made with us unjustly and against the law of the land, and all amercements imposed unjustly and against the law of the land, shall be entirely remitted, or else it shall be done concerning them according to the decision of the five-and-twenty barons of whom mention is made below in the clause for securing the peace, or according to the judgment of the majority of the same, along with the aforesaid Stephen, archbishop of Canterbury, if he can be present, and such others as he may wish to bring with him for this purpose, and if he cannot be present the business shall nevertheless proceed without him, provided always that if any one or more of the aforesaid five-and-twenty barons are in a similar suit, they shall be removed as far as concerns this particular judgment, others being substituted in their places after having been selected by the rest of the same five-and-twenty for this purpose only, and after having been sworn.

56. If we have disseised or removed Welshmen from lands or liberties, or other things, without the legal judgment of their peers in England or in Wales, they shall be immediately restored to them; and if a dispute arise over this, then let it be decided in the marches by the judgment of their peers; for tenements in England according to the law of England, for tenements in Wales according to the law of Wales, and for tenements in the marches according to the law of the marches. Welshmen shall do the same to us and ours.

57. Further, for all those possessions from which any Welshman has, without the lawful judgment of his peers, been disseised or removed by King Henry our father or King Richard our brother, and which we retain in our hand (or which are possessed by others, to whom we are bound to warrant them) we shall have respite until the usual term of crusaders; excepting those things about which a plea has been raised or an inquest made by our order before we took the cross; but as soon as we return (or if perchance we desist from our expedition), we will immediately grant full justice in accordance with the laws of the Welsh and in relation to the foresaid regions.

58. We will immediately give up the son of Llywelyn and all the hostages of Wales, and the charters delivered to us as security for the peace.

59. We will do toward Alexander, King of Scots, concerning the return of his sisters and his hostages, and concerning his franchises, and his right, in the same manner as we shall do toward our other barons of England, unless it ought to be otherwise according to the charters which we hold from William his father, formerly King of Scots; and this shall be according to the judgment of his peers in our court.

60. Moreover, all these aforesaid customs and liberties, the observance of which we have granted in our kingdom as far as pertains to us toward our men, shall be observed by all of our kingdom, as well clergy as laymen, as far as pertains to them toward their men.

61. Since, moreover, for God and the amendment of our kingdom and for the better allaying of the quarrel that has arisen between us and our barons, we have granted all these concessions, desirous that they should enjoy them in complete and firm endurance for ever, we give and grant to them the underwritten security, namely, that the barons choose five-and-twenty barons of the kingdom, whomsoever they will, who shall be bound with all their might, to observe and hold, and cause to be observed, the peace and liberties we have granted and confirmed to them by this our present Charter, so that if we, or our justiciar, or our bailiffs or any one of our officers, shall in anything be at fault toward any one, or shall have broken any one of the articles of the peace or of this security, and the offense be notified to four barons of the foresaid five-and-twenty, the said four barons shall repair to us ( or our justiciar, if we are out of the realm ) and, laying the transgression before us, petition to have that transgression redressed without delay. And if we shall not have corrected the transgression ( or, in the event of our being out of the realm, if our justiciar shall not have corrected it ) within forty days, reckoning from the time it has been intimated to us ( or to our justiciar, if we should be out of the realm ), the four barons aforesaid shall refer that matter to the rest of the five-and-twenty barons, and those five-and-twenty barons shall, together with the community of the whole land, distrain and distress us in all possible ways, namely, by seizing our castles, lands, possessions, and in any other way they can, until redress has been obtained as they deem fit, saving harmless our own person, and the persons of our queen and children; and when redress has been obtained, they shall resume their old relations toward us. And let whoever in the country desires it, swear to obey the orders of the said five-and-twenty barons for the execution of all the aforesaid matters, and along with them, to molest us to the utmost of his power; and we publicly and freely grant leave to every one who wishes to swear, and we shall never forbid any one to swear. All those, moreover, in the land who of themselves and of their own accord are unwilling to swear to the twenty-five to help them in constraining and molesting us, we shall by our command compel the same to swear to the effect foresaid. And if any one of the five-and-twenty barons shall have died or departed from the land, or be incapacitated in any other manner which would prevent the foresaid provisions being carried out, those of the said twenty-five barons who are left shall choose another in his place according to their own judgment, and he shall be sworn in the same way as the others. Further, in all matters, the execution of which is intrusted to these twenty-five barons, if perchance these twenty-five are present and disagree about anything, or if some of them, after being summoned, are unwilling or unable to be present, that which the majority of those present ordain or command shall be held as fixed and established, exactly as if the whole twenty-five had concurred in this; and the said twenty-five shall swear that they will faithfully observe all that is aforesaid, and cause it to be observed with all their might. And we shall procure nothing from any one, directly or indirectly, whereby any part of these concessions and liberties might be revoked or diminished; and if any such thing has been procured, let it be void and null, and we shall never use it personally or by another.

62. And all the ill-will, hatreds, and bitterness that have arisen between us and our men, clergy and lay, from the date of the quarrel, we have completely remitted and pardoned to every one. Moreover, all trespasses occasioned by the said quarrel, from Easter in the sixteenth year of our reign till the restoration of peace, we have fully remitted to all, both clergy and lajonen, and completely forgiven, as far as pertains to us. And, on this head, we have caused to be made for them letters testimonial patent of the lord Stephen, archbishop of Canterbury, of the lord Henry, archbishop of Dublin, of the bishops aforesaid, and of Master Pandulf as touching this security and the concessions aforesaid.

63. Wherefore it is our will, and we firmly enjoin, that the English Church be free, and that the men in our kingdom have and hold all the aforesaid liberties, rights, and concessions, well and peaceably, freely and quietly, fully and wholly, for themselves and their heirs, of us and our heirs, in all respects and in all places for ever, as is aforesaid. An oath, moreover, has been taken, as well on our part as on the part of the barons, that all these conditions aforesaid shall be kept in good faith and without evil intent. Given under our hand—the above named and many others being witnesses—in the meadow which is called Runnymede, between Windsor and Staines, on the fifteenth day of June, in the seventeenth year of our reign.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool Marianne has been scribbling upon Magna Carta today - Cool - she has been sharpening her biro again and makes good arguments and is more informative Cool

Magna Carta - Did She Die in Vain? - http://repwblic.informe.com/viewtopic.php?t=1199

" When I saw the Google Doodle this morning, I thought it must be marking fifty years of Lego ... David Cameron came out with some guff today about how important it was. It was utterly artificial cant ... Tony Hancock demanded plaintively if Magna Carta died in vain. They were joking. David Cameron really is that ignorant. ... We weren't directly affected in Wales at the time, but we had reason to be glad King John had been muzzled. The border area between England and Wales was like the Wild West. We know King John took a lot of young Welsh boys hostage and then hanged them. ... So what is Magna Carta about, and why is it important? Frankly, it looks a lot more important now than it did at the time. As late as Shakespeare's time it was considered of no special importance. His play 'King John' does not even mention it. ... "

Every time that I read Marianne's pieces I end up with a big smile on my face Very Happy but I am also hoping that Daf is going to scribble upon Carta Magna too ... begging !!!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:53 am    Post subject: mag Reply with quote

Oh, Dai, I didn't see your piece before I did my own. Otherwise I'd have put it underneath yours. Don't take it the wrong way. I was just rushing to do it this evening while it was still the alleged anniversary. That's why I didn't check yours out.

I don't like David Starkey either but I do find him quite funny, sometimes unintentionally. We know JFK or one of the Kennedys came to Runnymede to say a few words once. Except in Louisiana the laws of the USA have evolved form English common law and owe something to Magna Carta.

It doesn't say much for Magna Carta. We are inclined to talk of law as existing independent of any power or attempt to enforce it.

For African Americans in the old slave owning states up to about 1964, Magna Carta died in vain. Considering that newspapers announced days in advance that a named individual was to be lynched, and rarely was anything done to prevent it, it looks as if common law was entirely consistent with lynch law.

I have some very bad news for you. I've just looked up serfdom on wiki to see if I had it right, and apparently Alexander Lukashenko has reintroduced serfdom in Belarus as of 2014. This is honestly not a joke or an exaggeration. It is the literal truth.

I'm just terrified that David Cameron will reintroduce workhouses. It sounds farfetched, but this horrible story from Belarus shows that it's possible to regress to any stage of barbarism. I'm just holding my head, shouting ''Oh no! Oh no!''.

We thought it was great when the Berlin Wall came down and then the tyrant of Romania was toppled. Dafydd and I were ecstatic. An old lady said they would become Nazis again. She meant the Germans of course.

Serfdom was abolished in all the Russias only in 1861 and again in 1866. It was well within living memory when the revolution finished off the czar. It's so recent in historical terms, maybe this awful development shouldn't be too surprising.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Marianne,

I like virtually everything that you write and I do not really care where you post them : did you see the recent site statistics ? The good news at the moment is that the " membership " - not that as a " dis-organisation " we exactly have " members " - is 1,053, and I reckoned last night that 73,908 people visited the website which was viewed 393,932 times according to " pageinsider " - http://www.pageinsider.com/repwblic.informe.com#rank - so I guess that we must be doing something right ... something which I keep doing however is starting a thread and indulging myself in what I take to be a pleasure in writing ... then running out of time, imagination or inclination ... but then the whole point is that this is a bulletin board not an academic journal or a newspaper and so we do not need to uphold any particular standards other than that people should give something of themselves and not merely cut and paste other people's work ... although one standard does need to be upheld which is that of common decency towards others.

I.e. try to fork something Enlightening from the clouds of anger gathering in this political storm over Wales by all means, but distribute it generously to all parties rather than dumping it upon vulnerable individuals. The advantage of a bulletin board over a blog is that an offended individual can promptly respond if they wish to and not be censored in doing so, but if specific allegations are to be made of specific people then they should be indited with good facts and reasonable arguments - one reason why I cut and paste such allegations from journalistic sources ... on the other hand, since I have opted for the extreme stance of " Pure Republicanism " since 2013 due to the events of 2012, I am inclined to view Democracy itself as a criminal conspiracy against The People in Wales and therefore I take it for granted that anybody with who has been elected is obviously guilty of fraudulent misrepresentation, those who helped to get them elected must be guilty of collusion and anybody who has voted for them is obviously an accessory to the crime ... Magna Carta itself was the result of one criminal conspiracy being pitched against another so it was bound to fail - but then again, the origins of The United Kingdom lie in the various crime waves of the Early Medieval Mafia which led up to 1066 when the Middle Medieval Mafia progressively took over all of our neighbourhoods which then led in turn to the Modern Medieval Mafia which is now retiring back to Chiantishire having devolved control of their business in order to enfranchise it and thus draw their pensions from a Future Medieval Mafia.

As you know, writing about Republicanism in Wales is so much more entertaining than The Media in Wales but I have become much too weary to actually think too much about my political wreckreation ... and - as you can see - I can not even summon the inclination to try to get Daf to write : both of us are knackered and passed it ... in fact it is beginning to seem to me that all of The People in Wales are now suffering in our Middle Ages ...
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must come back and add to this properly ... but are you still relying on the 12:15 omnibus ?

Magna Carta is about
Licencing The Rich to flout
All the laws which they don't like
And from The Statute Book to strike
Any laws which give The Poor some clout.

dai repwblic - Dai Saw - David B Lawrence - claims the author's moral right - not to sue for copyright !
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