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Has Richard Dawkins lost it?
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject: testing testing Reply with quote

This is a test to see if I am now logged in as I've just lost a lovely contribution it took me hours to type!
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dai



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Marianne,

I am sorry to hear of your despair - but perhaps this is not too late ?

Before I click on " submit " I use " left click, right click - select all, copy " because I often idle over what I write and can find myself logged out - which appears to be what happened to you ? - but even if you have not done this you can ( three times ? ) hit the " < " button on the top left hand corner of the browser as soon as you have signed back in and the post a reply page will re-appear with your writing still there - each web page created from the received data is stored by the browser and so you can go back even further.

Another approach which I have resorted to when I am frustrated or feel the need for being more careful as to how I state things is to go to the launch button in the bottom left hand corner and type into the search box there " Wordpad " ( in Windows programmes ) and this is a simple word-processing notepad upon which to copy out things : I often use it for transcribing passages from paper books & books on line that refuse to allow copying ... the way to do this is to take the cursor to the top right AND DO NOT HIT THE RED X but choose the rectangle which will produce the webpage at a smaller size - take the cursor to the edges and it will change into a double headed arrow which grabs the edge allowing you to resize your view of Wordpad ( and of the browser by the same method ) - I generally choose to give half of the screen to Wordpad and the other half to the browser, but you can use the tabs at the bottom of the screen to click on Wordpad to bring it forward in front of the browser full-screen.

Call me when you are in Cardiff and we'll meet in a library and I will show you various things which you are not using - or ask Roger perhaps ?

BTW - I was rescued from Cardiff this afternoon and taken to a civilised place with a proper book-shop complete with mousetraps and cobwebs - the real things, not mere window-dressings - and everything fortunately massively overpriced due to the presence of The People in The Money - so I was saved from buying this : there was a diagram in it about who is controlling The World and of course on top of the triangle was " The Illuminati " - and who was their main agent in controlling The World ? - " Satan ! " ... I mean - c'mon ... who the hell can even control Dafydd ? ... Not me ... the last time that Daf summoned up a demonic lord, Beelzebub put in appearance only to instantaneously go off in a huff of smoke : after all, these creatures may live in hell but that's a tidy place - nothing like as bad as these private hells which we Illuminati create for ourselves here on earth.

The diagram was in David McCandless' book " Information is Beautiful " -

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/books/ ( > the second book )

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/ ( examples of such artistic diagrams )

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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:49 pm    Post subject: Barnaby Rudge Reply with quote

I'm not too anguished now as what I lost was the first draft of my screed on foxes and hunting which I've now resubmitted based on scrawled notes. It won't seem too important if you're uninterested in foxes and how the privileged are able to defy the law.

To bring things up to date, I can't agree with Dominic Lawson on climate change. He's obviously been influenced by his eccentric brother-in-law Lord Monkton, although he also has some connection with George Monbiot.

Where I do empathise with him is when he says that he was given worse than useless 'information' about what to expect when his daughter Domenica was born with Down's Syndrome as late as the mid 90s.

Medics told him she would probably not be able to walk or communicate. She is now a disability advocate and currently a barmaid.

Her boyfriend Daniel, a young man with a shock of red hair, is now playing the lead role in 'Barnaby Rudge', in which a 'simpleton' gets caught up in the Gordon Riots. Daniel too has Down's Syndrome. He was an inspired choice for the part.

Domenica Lawson has contacted Ursula Presgrave to inform her that 'we are real people' and to admonish her to 'stop this madness.'
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:52 pm    Post subject: That's Not Like You, Claire! Reply with quote

Perhaps surprisingly, the earth mother agony aunt and former nurse Claire Rayner saw fit to find fault with Dominic Lawson and his wife for failing to have a test to discover if their prospective baby had Down's Syndrome and also for not choosing a therapeutic abortion.

Claire Rayner's attitude was that they were just storing up misery for themselves, and their offspring would be a drain on the NHS - although it is surely there to be used. At this time, Rayner was a patron of the Down's Syndrome Association. She was outraged when her connection was subsequently terminated.

At some stage, Rayner also had a connection with the disability charity Scope which now campaigns for equality. After her death, the Guardian described her as 'an indomitable egalitarian.'

This obviously wasn't accurate, but we shouldn't rush to demonise her. In many ways, she was enlightened. She was disgusted as a young nurse, to see her colleagues slapping sick children.

A Roman Catholic website takes pot shots at 'cuddly Claire' who turned out to be a bit of a eugenicist. You can understand why they have it in for her.

At the time of 'Protest the Pope', Claire Rayner said: 'I have no language with which to adequately describe Joseph Alois Ratzinger AKA the Pope. In all my years as a campaigner I have never felt such animus against any individual as I do against this creature. His views are so disgusting, so repellent and so hugely damaging to the rest of us, that the only thing to do is to get rid of him.'

They were strong words but not unjustified considering that Cardinal Ratzinger as he then was had organised the global cover up of child abuse by the Catholic Church in defiance of secular law. He used the sanction of excommunication to silence anyone inclined to tell the truth.

Perhaps it was Rayner's experience as a nurse that paradoxically undermined her cuddly qualities. Somebody called Pretorious - no relation to Oscar as far as I know - has written a book on how he woke up paralyzed one morning in 1988. Medical staff told his parents that he was now a vegetable or had the mental functioning of a baby.

It wasn't true. They had no reason to make such a statement, but they were very sure of themselves.

Similarly, doctors at Airedale Hospital are proud of themselves for petitioning the high court to allow them to withdraw food and drink from Tony Bland who was left paralyzed after the Hillsborough disaster. Worryingly, this has has set a legal precedent.

Staff at a British hospital tried to persuade the daughter of a holocaust survivor to allow them to withdraw nutrition from her mother. They said that as the patient had had a stroke, she was incapable of thinking or suffering.

The daughter said, ''No way! My mother survived Auschwitz. I'm not going to let you starve her to death now!'' The daughter concluded that the medical staff had no way of knowing for sure that stroke patients didn't know what was going on, but it was a very convenient assumption for themselves.

I remember Claire Rayner advocating on TV withdrawing nutrition from those in a vegetative state. A woman in the audience opposed her. Doctors and nurses had wanted to let her father starve to death in hospital, but it was obvious to her that he was conscious.

''Then he wasn't in a vegetative state!'' exclaimed Rayner impatiently. She had missed the point.

Perhaps there is no such thing as a vegetative state. Perhaps it is a convenient fiction.

In her 1999 book 'Friends and Enemies', Dorothy Rowe commented on how the oppression of disabled people in Iraq was justified by the belief that they were sinners, cursed by God. She said this mythology wasn't required in Britain.

When she was working in the NHS in the 70s, the implicit attitude among medical personnel was that disabled people were not quite human. So they had no qualms about mistreating them.

A dear friend was upset when his wife, a former nurse, began nagging him to go to Switzerland to be put down, since he had begun to have a few minor senior moments. Unfortunately, people in 'caring' professions do become hardened. It is almost inevitable.

Doctors were traditionally arrogant and sometimes even sadistic. Now they are encouraged to be empathetic. The tragedy is that the more sensitive a doctor is, the more unbearable the job is. These days, doctors have an astronomical suicide rate.
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dai



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a short post before I go to bed - I am not sure as to how to bring this back to Dawkins - I could tell you about the circumstances of my mother's death but I don't care to here excepting to mention that it was being hastened ... When you are actually placed in the situation the medical staff become extremely legalistic and we ended up wrangling not over medical but legal arguments ... This is apparently a common-place and it is exactly the same problem as you encounter when you are disputing with any other branch of the United Kingdom in its various corporate entitities - their legal system is shaped by them to serve them not us : in a crisis situation when a poor person can not quickly remove their loved one to another hospital nor get the matter into a courtroom fast enough to challenge decisions made not on medical but financial grounds - you have to sit and watch them die.

In a sense this does relate to Dawkins in that the environment in which we live is The United Kingdom and this is imposing all sorts of constraints upon most of us who live and die according to the niches in the economic system which we occupy : surely you realise that you and I have had as much as twenty years taken off our potential lifespans because of Thatcherite and Blairite politics ? As Dafydd's joke goes : it's genetic - the children of the rich turn out to be rich also, the children of the poor inherit their parents' poverty ... The Democrats in Wales & Westminster claim that their political system delivers social mobility - yet wherever Democracy has established itself social mobility has ceased ... The Democrats in Wales & The World merely compete to win the opportunity to manage The People in Wales & The World on behalf of The ( very persistent ) Aristocrats & Monarchists - it is merely a front for same old feudal society - even in The United States of America where they believe that they are living in a post-feudal society.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject: The Cut Off Point Should Be Death Reply with quote

If a healthy young person in their 20s or 30s is brought into hospital with life threatening injuries, you can usually expect a medical team to pull out all the stops in their efforts to save them. Perhaps it's understandable that they don't have the same urgency when it comes to a person who has already lived a long life and has a chronic condition which is likely to terminate in death.

But you would expect that the latter were entitled to a decent quality of care and some attempt to prolong their life. On 'Have I Got News For You' in the early 90s, Angus Deayton quoted a doctor or nurse who was aggrieved at this expectation. The responsible professional had said, ''There has to be a cut off point.' Deayton commented wryly, ''It used to be death.''

Florence Nightingale's reputation has been thoroughly revised, and she is no longer thought to have been a good nurse at all. But even she had some guidelines that ought to be fundamental to running a hospital. They began, 'First, do no harm.'

Almost unbelievably, this is not considered of prime importance today. If hospitals were thoroughly and regularly cleaned, we wouldn't have constant superbug epidemics.

But there is something more sinister than carelessness at work. Perhaps there really is a good argument that life should not be preserved at all costs. People like Diane Pretty who suffered long, painful and progressive illnesses would have opted for euthanasia rather than die slowly and agonisingly.

But the Nazis had given euthanasia such a bad name, that there was just about no chance it would be openly introduced here. There were complaints of nurses ignoring the dignity and the expressed wishes of their patients, by forcing intrusive life saving techniques on patients in their 90s who were ready to slip peacefully away.

All a doctor or nurse was permitted to do legally was to give a terminally ill patient a lethal shot of morphine. By the doctrine of double effect, this was legal if the intention was not to kill but to relieve pain, even if they knew it would also cause death.

In response to complaints, the UK, except Wales, introduced the Liverpool Care Pathway For the Terminally Ill. This became a grotesque tick box exercise which was also in effect a self fulfilling prophecy. A nurse might give a patient a cursory glance, decide they were terminally ill, and consign them to a side ward where they were heavily sedated and denied water and nutrition.

In a few cases, relatives rescued the poor patients in time for them to carry on living. As for the rest, they were denied the benefit of euthanasia. But they were subjected to dysthanasia.

Euthanasia means a good death. They emphatically didn't have that.

My mother wanted me to write to my MP to express concern about the Liverpool Care Pathway. I dithered as it wasn't enforced in Wales, so I thought it unlikely my local MP would be interested.

Then we breathed a sigh of relief. The Liverpool Care Pathway was to be discontinued. The people responsible said defensively that the scheme had never been intended to be implemented as it was.

The staff on the ground had misinterpreted their instructions. It's a remarkable coincidence that in every hospital where it was applied, it was misunderstood in the same way.

We now hear that the worst abuses of the Liverpool Care Pathway are still being implemented under another name. The fact is that similar things happened in hospitals before we even heard of the Liverpool Care Pathway, and they do happen in Wales too.

I used to be on friendly terms with a man in his 90s. He was called Bill. Bill was in good health and mobile for a long time.

Then he went into the University Hospital of Wales and never came out. A mutual friend told me she couldn't get his death out of her mind. He was being fed via nasal tubes. This irritated him so he pulled them out.

My son Byron had been just the same as a slightly premature baby. When I saw Byron had pulled his tubes out, I dutifully put them back.

But the staff found this too much trouble in Bill's case. After all, he was in his 90s. They asked his sister if she would mind if they didn't put them back. She didn't have a problem with Bill starving to death, so they let it happen.

If she had objected, they would probably have adjusted the notes to indicate that she had agreed. My partner tells me his mother was also allowed to starve to death in hospital. He had tried to foil it, but the nurses outwitted him.

He and I went to see a friend in hospital. She was too ill to feed herself. A staff member would come in with a hot meal under a cloche and put it down.

Our friend couldn't even see it was there. She couldn't sit up and feed herself. This was obvious even to us, but there was no question of her being put on an intravenous drip.

I had a letter from my adoptive sister to tell me our mother was dead. She had had Parkinson's Disease, but she had been taken to hospital because she had fallen over and broken a bone.

A doctor told my sister that our adoptive mother's Parkinson's Disease would probably resolve itself' while she was in hospital. He meant she wasn't coming out except feet first in her coffin.

This came to pass. I thought it was a quite uncannily accurate prediction.

I was being naïve. The quality of care in the hospital was such that it took no special powers of perception to foresee what was going to happen.

Anyone could have told us that. The hospital was known locally as 'Death Row.' In the 90s, people constantly picketed it with banners saying it should be closed down.

It's not an easy job working in a hospital. I'm sure as hell not cut out for it. It must be exhausting.

But that doesn't mean that these cutting of corners are acceptable. It sounds harsh but if you have a duty of care to keep people alive and you deliberately shorten their lives instead, it is not even manslaughter. It is murder.

Hospitals are run more for the convenience of the staff than the welfare of the patients. And something worse than laziness is often involved.

I knew a very flamboyant and unusual person who was nice to me but did have a cruel side. He told us that he had worked in a hospital. He put the patients down whenever he felt like it . He was proud of it.

Even if euthanasia was sometimes a good idea, I don't think this guy would have been the right person to make the decision. His massive ego would have prevented his making a dispassionate judgement.

Some doctors and nurses do get a thrill from playing God. They are overrepresented among the ranks of the mentally ill, and if they are not arrogant to the point of narcissism when they begin their training, the job will often develop these traits in them.

We really need to scrap the whole ethos that hospitals are run on, and start again from scratch. Arrogance is a lethal quality in a doctor. We need doctors with humility.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:23 pm    Post subject: Ursula - a just and proportionate sentence Reply with quote

Ursula Presgrave appeared in court in November to plead guilty to a disability hate crime. She could hardly have denied it as she had left an electronic paper trail. Her guilt was flagrant.

She narrowly avoided jail perhaps by making a full confession. She had apparently felt disgusted with herself. Her blubbing in the police interview was probably an expression of fear or self pity, but the court generously accepted it as a sign of remorse.

Her solicitor said that had been fears about her health. She was a vulnerable person.

She had complex psychological issues that played out as constant attention seeking. She had brought the attention of the court to the contents of her mobile phone before. She had a previous conviction for possessing extreme pornography.

The prosecuting counsel denied that Ursula harboured prejudice against disabled people. Of course, she had to say whatever she could for her client, but this does not appear to be true. Ursula Presgrave's phone had images of children with Down's Syndrome with mocking comments and sick jokes.

She has got away with a fine and the status of a 'disgraced' ex-reality TV star. I think it's fair and proportionate. It would have been a bit invidious had she gone to jail.

There's a site on the internet that wants to 'begin the debate' with an hypothesis that those with Down's Syndrome are not human as they have a different number of chromosomes to 'normal' people. It hasn't even been taken off.

Of course, people were denying that Down's Syndrome sufferers were human before it was even discovered to be a chromosomal condition. If you want to deny that other people are human, any apparent fact will do.

A hospital has recently apologised to the family of Andrew Waters for putting a 'Do Not Resuscitate' directive in his notes without even consulting them. They admitted this was a breach of his human rights.

Andrew Waters had Down's Syndrome. He also enjoyed dancing, drama and swimming. The indications are that he loved life.

The crazy thing was the hospital almost certainly had 'Positive About Disabled People' signage all over the place. The staff wouldn't even have seen their behaviour as inconsistent with it.

We saw a woman on TV a few years ago. She ran her own company. In her view she was a dynamic contributor to the economy. She also used a wheelchair.

She went into hospital for some minor reason and was shocked and chilled to see 'Do Not Resuscitate' in her notes. Some doctors do need to have it explained to them that disabled people are often glad to be alive. Doctors often believe they are doing them a favour in relieving them of the burden of existence.

It's not just that it would be a bit unfair to put Ursula in prison while these others are at large. Some misguided people would see her as a martyr brought down by political correctness.

As it is, contributors to message boards have demanded, 'Since when is free speech a crime?' It seems to me that we have had a concept of hate crime in this country since at least the turn of the millennium. They can't have heard of it.

Even before we had a specific concept of hate crime, Julius Streicher appeared at the Nuremberg trials, accused of producing a disgusting pornographic comic 'Der Sturmer' which had contributed to the industrialised destruction of European Jews. He said Luther should be in the dock with him.

There was no realistic chance that Martin Luther would be exhumed from his grave and dragged to Nuremberg for trial. But he is thought to be a spiritual ancestor of Nazism.

In his virulent tract against 'the Jews and their lies', he advocated burning their books, destroying their synagogues and taking from them their wealth. He said they should be made to labour under compulsion. On a frenzied high note, he concluded, 'We are at fault in not killing them.'

It's facile and childish to commit hate crime and then hide behind the banner of free speech. There are a lot of impressionable and malleable people in the world. We should know that what we say can have real world consequences - even centuries hence.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject: Joe Says It Ain't So Reply with quote

Joe Sanderson, a horse racing fan from Yorkshire recently celebrated his 80th birthday. He was thrilled to reach that age. He is the most popular person in his care home.

He is currently the oldest person with Down's Syndrome in Britain and perhaps the world. When he was born in 1936, his mother was told that he couldn't be expected to live past his 21st birthday.

His life was been full of joy. It shows that Richard Dawkins and Ursula Presgrave are wrong.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:23 pm    Post subject: assault in the bogs Reply with quote

Ursula Presgrave was on some college course when another female student, who had more kindness than sense, allowed her to borrow her mobile phone. She was upset that Ursula used it to post an abusive message online. It looked as if the other person had done it.

The student metioned the subject to a lecturer. Ursula felt aggrieved and betrayed. She followed the other student into the ladies' toilets, and proceeded to air her grievances vocally while punching and kicking the other young woman, and pulling her hair.

Ursula still felt that it was she who was the victim when she appeared in court to be fined £400 and given a community service and supervision order. Ursula has 'issues' and 'vulnerabilities' as a lawyer said.

Oddly enough, it is often this sort of person who commits disability hate crime. You might think they would feel at one with other vulnerable people.

Instead they are anxious to distance themselves from them. They can't stand being reminded of their own vulnerability.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:34 pm    Post subject: stroc Reply with quote

Richard Dawkins has had to cancel his engagements as he has had a slight stroke. I hope he makes a good recovery.

He's a colourful character if a bit ridiculous sometimes. His fan base will not be praying for him. Nor will they be sacrificing a goat.

If they did, he'd be so indignant, he'd probably have another stroke.

I told a friend, ''Richard Dawkins' had a stroke!''

''Oh, someone likes him!'', he said jovially as he mimed 'smoothing' a cat or dog. In West Wales, we iron - 'smwthio' - our furry friends.
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Moritz



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lalla Ward = Romana II from Doctor Who and Dawkins divorced Sad Sad Sad
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:53 pm    Post subject: split Reply with quote

I'm sorry to hear that. He'd been married and divorced twice before, but it looked as if this one would last. They were introduced at a party or event for Douglas Adams who wrote 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.'

No reason has been given. I won't be impudent enough to speculate about it.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:20 am    Post subject: moroni Reply with quote

Richard Dawkins has shot up in my estimation. In a conversation with Sam Harris, he said that David Cameron will go down in history as a moron.
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Moritz



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:55 am    Post subject: Re: Joe Says It Ain't So Reply with quote

marianneh wrote:
Joe Sanderson, a horse racing fan from Yorkshire recently celebrated his 80th birthday. He was thrilled to reach that age. He is the most popular person in his care home.

He is currently the oldest person with Down's Syndrome in Britain and perhaps the world. When he was born in 1936, his mother was told that he couldn't be expected to live past his 21st birthday.

His life was been full of joy. It shows that Richard Dawkins and Ursula Presgrave are wrong.

NO. Dawkins etc are exactly and perfectly true.
If a person is in so much pain that to kill them would be a mercy, then slit their throat like a person. Do NOT starve them to death and pile on extra pain.

This is the Truth Universally Acknowledged.

As for whether this applies to a specific patient is judged case by case.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:36 am    Post subject: non Reply with quote

I never said anyone should be starved to death. What do you take me for?

Dawkins doesn't know enough about Down's Syndrome to have an opinion. I don't know if it involves physical suffering, but if someone with the condition says he is happy to be alive, I take his word for it.

Imagine someone is in agonising pain or has no discernible quality of life at all. It would be a disgrace to starve them to death in hospitals or anywhere else.

This is what happened with Tony Bland who had been seriously injured at Hillsborough. Doctors petitioned that they be allowed to let him die of hunger and thirst. He wasn't badly injured enough to be on a life support machine which you can just switch off.

The court agreed that they could kill him slowly and indirectly through hunger and thirst. They would not kill him directly as that would be murder.

This has set a precedent. Since then, all sorts of people have been starved to death legally.

For in this country we do not have legal euthanasia but legal dysthanasia instead.This is disgusting hypocrisy.

People who have extra chromosomes but are perfectly happy don't require euthanasia. People who know they will die in agony if they are not helped out of the world in a civilised way - and request assisted suicide- such as Diane Pretty for instance - are candidates for voluntary euthanasia whose wishes should be respected.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:03 am    Post subject: morte Reply with quote

Richard Dawkins and Ursula Presgrave want different things. Dawkins said it was immoral not to abort a foetus with Down's Syndrome.

You know I wouldn't object to someone having an abortion for this reason or any other. But it's going too far to say it would be immoral not to do it.

But he was not advocating anything illegal.

Presgrave called people with Down's Syndrome 'vegetables', and advocated murdering them. They are not vegetables.

They often have learning difficulties but they can think.

Some people who know Ursula Presgrave think she is a moron. So should they be allowed to put her down?

Richard Dawkins has called David Cameron a moron. Should we be allowed to put him down?

Hmmmm......I think I'm going to have to think this out again.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:16 am    Post subject: da Reply with quote

I wouldn't lose that much sleep about David Cameron starving to death as he deliberately starved benefits claimants to death. But we shouldn't come down to his level.

We shouldn't cut his throat either. This is the halal butchery method which is not humane. I'm afraid we'll have to let him live. He well deserves to be hated though.
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dai



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had an interesting chilling conversation recently about my mother's death : as you know the argument in the hospital basically boiled down to this - " You are right Mr Lawrence : we have no medical reason to refuse to give your mother medical treatment - but this is our hospital."

Basically the reason why people die - or rather are killed - in.the National Health Service is money and even before they die poor people are already at a disadvantage in it : study after study had demonstrated that articulate people with professional status obtain more from it.

It makes me angry that NHS cash is spent on trans-sexual operations and providing bigger breasts or homeopathy etc : if people want these things they should pay for them - the NHS is supposed to be about providing for public health not private preferences.

The first part of the argument over my mother was about withdrawing medication and leaving her to die in " intensive care " the second was that having not encompassed her death they tried to hasten it by placing her body in front of a hot window without even a saline drip.

After two days of arguing that not providing moisture is not a medical intervention but effectively manslaughter - they vehemenently denied that they were doing " The Liverpool Care Plan " - I got her a drip : but I am articulate and not taken in by those brandishing status as authority.

The doctor arguing against the drip claimed that my arguing patiently for two days for my mother's life was " aggressive " and that I was " threatening " him and he eventually said that if I continued he would have me thrown out of the hospital - arrested even....

... and he protested most strongly that if my mother was given a drip i.e. water, an absolute basic necessity for life ( and for limited kidney function which was her problem : they basically planned to poison her ) - then she might continue to live ... Which I pointed out was the point ...
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: pwnc Reply with quote

This horrible situation is something that most of us will have to face, both as helpless patients ourselves and as would be advocates for our relatives or friends. Yes, you will be treated with more respect if you present as articulate and influential.

But this is the staff's game, played according to their rules. They've done it all before. You will inevitably feel emotional, and will not be at your best for game playing.

It 's quite obvious from the casual conversation of doctors and nurses that they allowed people to die of hunger and thirst long before the Tony Bland case. They just didn't feel the need to ask a court's permission. They sentence people to the most awful death you could imagine - innocent people - and for this they receive a handsome salary.

They leave the hospital and go out to dinner in a good restaurant, perhaps followed by a trip to the theatre. They are not bothered at all.

We discussed the Tony Bland case on a legal course. One of the students told me off for saying that he had been starved to death. She quoted back at me the words of wisdom from the high court.

I replied, ''That's what they said. But they were just playing with words. In reality they were starving him to death.''

She curled her ilp but to her great surprise - and also to mine - the lecturer said he agreed with me.

Is there any point before death that it really is appropriate to withdraw hydration and nutrition? Maybe yes.

When you hear the death rattle in the throat. The patient wouldn't be able to swallow after that. I am not qualified to say if an intravenous drip would be any use after this sign of impending dissolution begins.
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:59 pm    Post subject: hawl Reply with quote

There's now a song on the net 'Hawl i Fyw' to raise money for someone who won't be given medication for cancer because the NHS don't think his life is that important. When you've just been given this devastating diagnosis, that is the time you are given the information that your local NHS trust won't waste money on you.

I don't think I'd mind the NHS spending money rather frivolously on cosmetic surgery if only thy tool sick people seriously too.
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