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Moritz



Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 225

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't hate foreigners. I don't hate moths. I don't hate woodlice.

It is written: God is a Brit; therefore it is written Morgan Freeman is a Brit.

Brits are better than foreigners.
Brit moths are better than foreign moths.
Brit woodlice are better than foreign wood-lice who taste of garlicq

that's logical captain
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:46 am    Post subject: I'm not racist BUT... Reply with quote

Some of my eldest son's best friends were woodlice before he started school. I hate moths and also slugs.

I met a woman in Cwmbran who began telling me she was not racist, which I was prepared to accept. But I could tell it was just a conventional introduction to a racist rant when she began saying that Enoch was right and we should get rid of all these Pakis.

My friend Judy was a professional landlady. She lived under the same roof as her tenants. She often had psychotic episodes which didn't spell anything good for the tenants.

She had a lot of Greek student age girls as tenants. My son said meditatively, ''I liked those Greek ladies.''

Unfortunately, Judy did not. She convinced herself that they were 'bonking in the shower.'

She was upset that a professional academic who was an old friend would not confront them about her suspicions. She thought this very cowardly of him. She said, ''I was the one who had to call Aphrodite a slut!''

But later after she had called out the police to sort out two Indian tenants after part of the house had collapsed - she hadn't been maintaining it but she thought the tenants were to blame - the Greeks ascended to heaven in her eyes.

She now said she hated Indians, and spoke possessively of 'my Greeks.' She said she wouldn't have any further tenants who were not Greek.

She began shouting, ''I won't have a Pakistani in my house. I'd be in danger if there was a Pakistani in the house!'' in front of my friend Melanie. I thought, ''Oh no! Melanie will be offended. If she starts about Jews I'll have to break the crockery to create a diversion.'' I later found out that Melanie found her funny.

I subsequently said, ''Er..Judy, if you have to have racist outbursts could you try not to have them in public? It might cause problems.''

Judy was offended and hurt that I had called her racist because that is just about the ultimate insult these days. She began protesting that she wasn't racist.

Judy is mad. But I was sorry to see Idris who I thought was intelligent and sane, coming out with conventional nonsense like, ''I'm not racist. Some of my best friends are black BUT...'' Brexit is destroying our brain cells and our self awareness.

Judy phoned me in moderate dudgeon to tell me of how her Sikh friends had accused her of being racist after she made certain xenophobic remarks. She had a spiel about, ''I'm not racist'' etc.

Rather than tell her the truth she didn't want to hear about herself, I said, ''Well, Judy, I think we're all a bit racist or most of us are.''

''What, you're racist? You discriminate?''

''No, no Judy! I'm not recommending it. I loathe racism but that doesn't mean I'm totally innocent of it. I was brought up by very racist parents. I know it's wrong. I've overcome it intellectually, but early impressions can't be expunged totally from the soul. My children are probably really not racist, but most older people do have a little bit of it. If you are at all honest, you must admit that it is there.''

I was surprised when a friend told me I was the least racist person he'd ever met. I said, ''I'm flattered but you're quite wrong. I have overcome my racist upbringing on a rational level but if I was wired up to a racistometer, it would be obvious that I still sometimes experience this primitive impulse at a sub-rational, visceral level - not often but just very occasionally.''

It seems strange that I hate racism but can admit to myself that overcoming it in myself is a work in progress, yet people who are extremely racist will indignantly deny it. As my old friend said, to be racist is almost to be human.

We are all susceptible to it. I can understand people not wanting to admit it to other people, because it is almost like admitting to being a paedophile in today's word. But if you can't admit it to yourself when it is obviously a fact, you don't know yourself very well, and you will be even more of a prey to rabble rousers because you can't think clearly.
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dai



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 2639

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Marianne,

I wonder what your take is on this : I got very angry about those accusations of anti-semitism made by various people at various people for really trivial remarks that may or may not have been racist but were on the level of dinner party gaffs and nothing like what I associate with racism ... For example when Daf indulges himself in rehearsing ancient prejudices like anti-Catholicism I cringe but I know that Daf ( Moritz ) thinks of this as Punch & Judy show and would not actually behave in a prejudiced way to a Catholic or probably any other sincerely held belief - he likes smells and bells ! - but in contrast Asamux is always polite and correct it seems to me yet if the subject of religion comes up he will not spare the feelings of somebody who has a sincerely held belief that he deems to be wrong : Asamux is politely cruel and Moritz is rudely kind to those with different belief systems yet neither could be considered to be prejudiced against religious identity - or gender or sexual orientation etc Their attitude however is often lost on those who come from a different culture and attribute their behaviour to racism when Asamux and Moritz are reacting to something cultural like a belief system or a behaviour ... Think of it this way : is it racist to object to the belief systems which give rise to Female Genital Mutilation when our own culture encourages all sorts of female behaviours that are equally drastic and designed also to please men by methods which injure women ? ...

... Surely the Republican stance is for people being able to say what they think, to discuss things freely and argue with others in a vigorous but playful manner - and not to bully and harass somebody to change their mind but to give them the same freedom that we all desire - a bit of time and space and privacy to reconsider - and no triumphant crowing afterwards over their change of mind : politics may be contested but it is best conducted as a game not a war - therefore the otherness of the opponent can be discussed as a matter of interest and as such is an opportunity to open a conversation and start a relationship - not an occasion to define the difference as a reason for not talking to a person in order to not be challenged over practising discrimination against them.
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:10 pm    Post subject: raggle taggle gypsy o Reply with quote

It's very difficult to talk sensibly about who is racist and who is not. A study on the subject mentioned a British landlady who had white American students as tenants during the civil rights era. She came up to their rooms to tell them excitedly that Martin Luther King and his freedom marchers were on the TV.

She waxed indignant on behalf on African Americans, commended their brave stance and, entirely unfairly, accused her tenants of being racist. She then finished off by saying, ''Mind you, I wouldn't let them in the house!''

The one off character Leo Abse wrote an extraordinary book, 'Wotan My Enemy' which makes you lose the will to live. In other writings, he said that Jews like himself could take insults. They were strong.

But what about the poor Blacks? They needed more protection. We should never tolerate racism against the weak. This was an incredibly racist statement, yet he obviously thought he was making an anti-racist remark.

Our old friend who had a father from Mozambique and an Austrian mother used to say that he couldn't be racist. It was impossible. He was black!

I think all the above statements can fairly be described as confused, and race is a subject that makes people super duper confused. In 'Infidel', my old stand-by Ayaan Hirsi Ali said that one of the things she hated about Saudi Arabia as a child was the racism. Even the teacher would call her 'black slave girl' when setting about her with a ruler.

The family later moved to Kenya. Her mother hated Kenyans. She said they were cannibals. To her, they were barely human. She called them horrible names, some of which meant slave. 'Throughout the ten years we spent in Kenya [her mother and grandmother] treated Kenyans 'almost exactly as the Saudis had behaved towards us.'

As a child I imbibed both philo-Semitic attitudes and the opposite. Have I shaken them off? Maybe not. I felt sore on breaking up with by former best friend Melanie not just for the usual reasons but because I no longer had a Chosen Person as a significant player in my life.

OK, most of us have Jewish blood but this was the only friend who had been brought up with the culture and religion. On some level, I felt it was quite a feather in my cap.

On a rational level, I know I'm being ridiculous. But I'm human. I'm allowed to be ridiculous.

I note that you said at some point on this site that you have higher standards for Jews than other people. I don't know why but it must indicate some deep emotional resonance. Firstly, if you had Ukrainian ancestors who were Jews, you must identify with them so you feel embarrassed if they misbehave.

This is reinforced after being stoned by obnoxious kids near a synagogue. Then your sister, whom you find impossible to get on with, supports Israel. So, you must have both negative and positive emotions on the subject.

One problem here is that it is legitimate to criticise Israel and to criticise - fairly - the religion. When does a comment cross the line and become racist? I think each comment has to be judged on its merits.

Here is an extreme and embarrassing example. To this day, some people justify the practice of the godfather sucking the blood away after a baby boy has been circumcised. Two people told me to my face that in a religious context, it was not a sexual act. It certainly is, and it is not acceptable.

This is stern but appropriate criticism. If someone says Jews are shape shifting lizards, that is not just anti-Semitic. It is insane.

It's the same with Catholicism. When Ulster Protestants say, ''I feel sorry for Catholics because they are all going to hell for Mariolatry and swinging incense around'', that's not very nice. I like smells and bells too.

It doesn't mean that stern criticism is not warranted. Setting Savita aside for the moment, the Church has lied and lied about child abuse. Sometimes, it looks as if deceiving the outside world is its raison d'etre.

I don't think it's necessary to go up to a religionist and laugh at them for the sake of it. But we can respect other people's religions to the extent that we respect someone's theory that his wife is beautiful and his children are clever.

You don't have to tear it down brutally, but neither do you have to believe it genuinely, deep down in your heart. Richard Dawkins often goes for soft targets like water dowsers.

It's best to wait until the religionist tries to force his religion down your throat. If he tries to push you around, let him have it with both barrels.

I had an acquaintance who subscribed to romantic notions of raggle taggle Gypsies O. He became involved in attempts to teach basic literacy to adult Gypsies.

He became extremely disillusioned as they were nothing like the Gothic romance figures he had conjured up in his imagination. He swung to the opposite extreme and began to hate them.

His rationalisation was that they oppressed their own women. Although this is true, it is something they have in common with almost all traditional cultures, including his own. He electrified his senior colleagues when he said, ''Hitler knew what he was doing with this lot!''

My family in Pembrokeshire would like to think that they are descended from all sorts of ethnic groups including Jews, African Caribbean stowaways and Romany Gypsies. One of our cousins said we had a right to identify with Gypsies. Hancock is a Gypsy name.

It certainly is. Ian Hancock writes on Gypsy history including the persecution of European Gypsies in the Nazi era. And there sure are Romany Gypsy families in Pembrokeshire.

But Hancock can also be a Flemish name, and there are even more people of Flemish descent in South Pembrokeshire. I don't mind whether we have Gypsy ancestors or not. But on the balance of probabilities, I'd say we probably don't.

I mentioned the theory to my friend Judy without expressing much scepticism about it. At this time her long lost brother, who had been living in Australia, was staying with her.

Judy convinced herself that it was indecent to share a bathroom with a man considering that she was a church goer. As she only had one bathroom, she told me on the phone that she wasn't washing. She was indignant that some people complained about her body odour.

When she came to see me and my partner, the BO wasn't as bad as I had feared, but it was noticeable. She looked like a tramp and her hair was straggly and filthy.

All the time she was complaining about her tenant Mair who was untidy and left her clothes on the floor of her room. Judy had a theory to account for this.

She said, ''I swear she's a Gypsy! They've got Gypsies in Somerset!'' This was apparently where Mair's mother came from.

Seeing that I looked a bit shell shocked, Judy turned on me and said, ''I'm sorry, Marianne. I can't help it if you've got Gypsy blood!'' I replied, ''Well, I can't help it either!''

In this country, we've only recently seen Gypsies as an ethnic group. We've been racist to them but that was not how we saw it. This was as good an example as any of racism as projection. She saw Gypsies as filthy, and all the time she was in need of a good scrub - and probably a community psychiatric nurse.

I said ruefully to Dafydd that I hadn't known she was prejudiced against Gypsies when I told her of my alleged Gypsy ancestry. Dafydd's sarcastic rejoinder was, ''No, she was too busy being prejudiced against Jews and Niggahs and women! You didn't think she had time to be prejudiced against Gypsies!''
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Wood Louse Reply with quote

I'm not racist but I know that if it came to a boxing match, a British wood louse could pulverise a French wood louse with three legs tied behind it.[/u]
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:47 pm    Post subject: What has the EU ever done for us? Reply with quote

Writing in the Guardian, Carole Cadwalladr tells us that in Ebbw Vale, the sense of injustice is stronger than the facts. In a place with hardly any immigration, they voted to get immigrants out.

Zak Kelly aged 21, stands by a state of the art college complex that would not look out of place in Canary Wharf. It was funded by the EU.

He has just finished training on a marvellous new football pitch. It was also funded by the EU.

He moans, ''What's the EU ever done for us?'' Then, like a character in 'Life of Brian', he pauses and says, ''Well, I know they built all this.''

Remo, the grandson of Italian immigrants, tells Julian Meek from 'The Dynamic', that the EU has funded housing and regeneration projects locally. But there is a feeling of anger and abandonment.

'Paul' tells Meek that there are no jobs and too many Poles. In this 'landscape of green felt like a billiard cloth laid over the hills', people say there are no jobs because of all the immigrants. They have been reading the Murdoch press.

Deborah Basini tells Cadwalladr that she voted 'Remain', ''All my family did. I'm very worried. I'm 60. It's not going to affect me. It'll be my grandchildren who are not yet born...There was only one word people had on their minds, immigration. They didn't look at the facts at all.''

Are there any immigrants in Ebbw Vale? ''No! Hardly any. And the ones that are, are all working, all contributing. It's just illogical.''

An actor from Port Talbot, commented, '''Wales votes to trust a new and more right wing Tory leadership to invest as much money into its poorer areas as [the] EU has been doing.'
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:09 pm    Post subject: seemed like a good idea at the time Reply with quote

Walking down the road today, I saw my neighbour Haydn. I said, ''Well, you had your wish. You said your heart said that we should leave the EU.'' Yes, but I never expected it to happen!'', he replied.

He said recent events had been like something in a Jeffrey Archer novel. I saw my friend, Phil, an Irish national. I said, ''Isn't it terrible?'', lamenting all the bad things that Brexit would and had caused. ''Well yes, that's true'', he said slowly and equably, ''Mind you, I voted to leave!''

''Did you? Why?'' I asked. ''Well, to get independence and control of our borders.''

I recounted the encounter with Idris to friends outside a pub, without mentioning him by name. They laughed and agreed he had been very racist, utterly ridiculous and irrational. Then one after another, they said that they had all voted to leave, although for different reasons.

''I didn't expect to see all this racism'', said my friend Beca.

Another friend said he was annoyed with people who voted to leave as a protest vote, without wanting it to happen. As for Boris and Gove, they were like rats deserting the sinking ship, as was Farage of course.

I was upset that Theresa May says that there will be no second referendum, we are going to have Brexit, and it will be made to work.

My friend, a former lecturer in Economics, said it might not be for long. He was counting on Scotland and Northern Ireland to pull us back into the EU. He said it need take no longer than five years.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:20 pm    Post subject: inglorious Reply with quote

I'm trying to see something good in this mess. All I can think of is that this is the last full day of David Cameron's time as prime minister, pending the coronation of Theresa May tomorrow.

I'm glad he's going. But the less compassionate part of my mind wants him to be made to pay for his inglorious and contemptible reign. I can't say if Tony Blair should be impeached for his illegal war. He tells us he had no mens rea. It was all a mistake.

David Cameron indirectly killed Mark Wood, David Clapson and other vulnerable adults with the utmost deliberation. He should be on trial, facing a whole life sentence. How many normally gentle people would like something very nasty and very painful to happen to him? It would be interesting to know.
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:26 pm    Post subject: full of grace Reply with quote

On the day Margaret Thatcher was forced to resign, an Australian politician noted how taken aback he had been by her 'unabashed racist views.' She was not at all daunted in expressing them by the presence of his wife who belonged to the ethnic group she was disparaging.

He said that in spite of her remarkable talents, she was out of touch, the product of a previous age. Somebody criticised him for his 'graceless' attack on Thatcher within minutes of her fall from power.

Luckily my grace account is in credit. So I feel up to dissing David Cameron, yes, even on the very day he fell from power.

In his last speech to the House of Commons, he had the impudence to say that he had 'strengthened the economy.' He brought in appalling austerity measures, and then had the Brexit referendum.

This amounted to throwing all our money on a bonfire. That's his idea of strengthening the economy!

He said he would put an end to yah-boo politics, then taunted Jeremy Corbyn on his dress sense.

The late Victorian prime minister, William Ewart Gladstone, was known to his admirers as GOM. It stood for Grand Old Man, although Disraeli sniped that it was God's Only Mistake.

Gladstone wasn't very bothered when General Gordon was besieged by the Mad Mahdi and other Islamist extremists in Sudan. After the worst happened, Gladstone's critics reversed the initials to read MOG for murderer of Gordon.

So what acronym should Cameron bear in the ante-room of Valhalla? Will it be MOC, murderer of Clapson or MOW, murderer of Wood? We're really spoilt for choice.

Dai may be afraid that I am being inflammatory and this might - improbably I think - lead to Cameron being physically assaulted. But I would say. don't degrade yourself by making physical contact with him. If you see him in the street, cross the road to avoid him.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:30 pm    Post subject: apologies and excuses Reply with quote

My excuse for absence from Dydd Rhydd today is as follows: I had a basic misunderstanding about the venue. I thought it was in Cardiff. When I found out it was Caerphilly, the logistics of getting there defeated me.

On a minor key, I'm just a bit nervous about going to areas I don't know well since I nearly fainted in Newport about a month ago, probably due to pre-menopausal hormonal shenanigans. I've had similar experiences close to home, but that was not so worrying.

In one way it's good I was here as I was able to volunteer at my Thursday Welsh class for Eisteddfod related stuff. I hope this will get me and some of my friends on to the Maes for free. You know it's in Abergavenny at the end of the month of course?

I also had a chance to see someone who does not want to witness the Islamicisation of Europe. He forcefully gave me his pro-Brexit line. He thought Boris Johnson should have been prime minister. I didn't put up much of a fight as I was hoping to avoid blood on the carpet.

A very meek person also told me today that if he had had time to get out and vote, he would have voted for Brexit. He said he remembered what it had been like before. He believed that the financial losses we are now suffering are just teething problems and we will be better off out in the long run.

When I mentioned the racist attacks, he agreed they were bad. He then said that his Latvian father's family had been wiped out by the Nazis

. Another friend agreed with my bemusement about people who said we were being pushed around by people in Brussels. I had never felt oppressed in that way.

I was surprised Boris Johnson was back in the cabinet, let alone as Foreign Minister - or is it Foreign Secretary? My friend suggested that Mrs May was putting the Brexiteers on the front line. They are expendable. He predicted that Boris will soon self destruct - again!
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Moritz



Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 225

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NO POPERY
NO Popery
Remember Magna Charta; did she die in vain?


Don't lie. Your father taught you that the rev-counter measures the size of your willy and my mother taught me that if you lie, you get eaten by polar bears.,

Quote:
I associate with racism ... For example when Daf indulges himself in rehearsing ancient prejudices like anti-Catholicism I cringe but I know that Daf ( Moritz ) thinks of this as Punch & Judy show and would not actually behave in a prejudiced way to a Catholic or probably any other sincerely held belief - he likes smells and bells ! - but in contrast Asamux


Popery = Tyranny; Islamicism = Tyranny; Sharia = Tyranny;

The difference, DAI is that I think Tyranny is a bad thing.
So Dai says typical Moritz ranting.

No true Scotsman fallacy

Good News, many RCs, Muslims, Quakers etc are hypocrites. They don't REALLY believe all that Terrorism and Tyranny and Treason and Torture stuff. They mostly wanna be honest citizens.

Bad News, Dai is gonna say Christians are hypocrites because we got menstruous bishops and gay weddings. We are dropping those tyrannous and treasonous rules.

The difference is that Christianity is supposed to be worshipping the God of Love. It rarely achieves that ideal, but ... the virtue is written.

Christianity has this thing about Love, so it can be reformed.
Sharia etc worship gods of tyranny etc. How can they be reformed???
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject: allihu akbar Reply with quote

I discuss the contention that the modern Christian God is the embodiment of love while a Muslim has a master/slave relationship with Allah in the thread called 'Ohh...Rowan!'', also filed under 'Propaganda'. So I needn't do it here.

As you know< I like to think the best of everyone. But the more I find out about the Catholic Church, the more daunted I feel that it could ever be redeemed, because of the evidence that it is a big scam which must give insiders classes in advanced hypocrisy.

I hope to put up more findings on the Savita thread on this subject but in a fair and balanced way. If I can find anything good about the Vatican, I will give it its due. But the embarrassing thing is that the big picture is so appalling, that if you just report the facts, you can be taken for a hate filled bigot.

I'd love to think it was a delightful organisation. But the facts don't support that.
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Moritz



Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 225

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If I can find anything good about the Vatican, I will give it its due.
Don't hold your breath
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:01 pm    Post subject: satoshi Reply with quote

To be honest, my original feelings when I heard a priest and two nuns had been targeted by Islamists in Normandy were totally inappropriate. I'll leave you to imagine what they were.

This was all the more disgraceful on my part, as I'd have been most hurt and offended if anyone had expressed similar feelings about Satoshi Uemastu's massacre of cripples at a facility outside Tokyo where he used to be a staff member. He obviously thought he had done a noble thing.

He 'bravely' gave himself up, telling the police, ''I did it. It is better that disabled people disappear.'' Before his stabbing spree, he wrote to the Japanese authorities, offering his services in a brave new world where disabled people would be euthanised.

If they didn't take him up on it, they didn't take steps to take him off the streets either. As Alan Hennnessy commented, we are living in a world of constant terror but we, the disabled, have always lived with fear. We are oppressed, 'dehumanised and hated.'

Hennessy tells us that disability related attacks rose by 213% in the UK last year. Thanks, Dave.

After my aunt lost the sight of one eye, a nurse told her with contempt that ' just because she was blind', she needn't expect any special treatment in the hospital where she had the misfortune to find herself. The nurse obviously believed the urban myth that disabled people are over privileged, and thought it was her job to take them down a peg or two.

Similarly, I was warned at school that 'just because I was a cripple', I shouldn't flatter myself that I was exempt from getting beaten up in the school grounds. This prediction turned out to be correct.

People who 'work with' the disabled are more thoroughly imbued with contempt for them, by and large', than anyone else. Perhaps health visitors and social care workers are even worse than doctors.

A former acquaintance 'Dodo' believed that kids with certain disabilities should be put down at birth, and their parents should be told that they had been stillborn. He hadn't thought it through. The disability in question would not be apparent at birth.

Somebody would be sure to notice that the condition had ceased to exist, and that the number of recorded stillbirths had simultaneously increased. I was outraged on many levels.

I said, ''If I found out that someone had murdered my baby and lied to me, I'd be very angry'', he said, ''But if you never found out it wouldn't matter.''

I said, ''What, you think murder doesn't matter as long as no one finds out about it?'' When I said, ''What about honesty? What about informed consent?'', he thought they were interesting optional extras.

He also thought the people he had in mind were not people at all. We were on a bus together when I made an awful faux pas, reacting harshly to a boy without realising he was afflicted.

The adults with him, quite rightly, told me off and explained what his problem was. Dodo didn't notice, saying ignorantly that he was not all there.

It was Dodo who was not all there. He was anxious to kill cripples to save money. I said that listening to his conversation was like being a Jew at a Nuremberg rally. I took it personally.

He denied that I was disabled. I said, ''Yes, I am!'' He said, ''I've worked with these people!'' as if that made him an expert. I said it was extremely disturbing that he had been allowed to do so.

Dodo told off a survivor of the Aberfan disaster for having naughty and unkind thoughts about the coal board. He was hurt when I dissed the Ayatollah Khomeini, and was particularly fond of the shade of Adolf Hitler. He said that he had 'real sensibility.' He added, ''He could be charming! He could be solicitous!''

A few lecturers who had tried to teach him thought he had psychological problems. Tim Saunders thought he was not in touch with reality; my adoptive father thought he sounded like a 'right nutter.'

He couldn't look after himself and needed state handouts to exist. As he misinterpreted people's actions and words on every level, I can't be entirely sure that he was right in saying the doctors he met, agreed with him about involuntary euthanasia, and said they 'would not hesitate' to implement it.

Dodo believed his stance was based on 'pure humanity.' He also defended paedophilia as 'children are physically mature at eight.' I don't believe he was interested in doing it himself, but he felt protective of those who did.

This is the kind of person who gets to work in these 'facilities.' Perhaps we need better background checks.

The message board under Alan Hennessy's article contained supportive messages. But there were also angry and aggressive posts, denying that disability prejudice even exists. And yet they were blatantly exhibiting it!
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: see no evil Reply with quote

The stand up comedian Francesca Martinez has, in real life, the hard to control body that Derek Jacoby had to imitate in playing the emperor in ' I Claudius.'
She is cool with it, describing herself as ' a bit wobbly.'

Dodo would have wanted to kill her at birth. Doctors took a grave view when she was a baby. They told her parents that she would never have a 'normal' life.

They were right. As she says, she's had an amazing life.

She concedes that her confidence took a knock from the bullying she encountered at secondary school. Andrew Neil and Michael Portillo refused to believe she had been bullied when she mentioned this on TV. They said she must be mistaken.

I've mentioned on another post that I requested the help of a GP in modifying my body during my school years. I explained that some people at school bullied me.

''No they don't, bach'', he said. I gazed at him in consternation. I knew he was wrong but it didn't seem possible to challenge him. In those days, doctors were treated like demi-gods.

At the time, I thought his disbelief was rooted in his own decency. I would find it hard how bad it was myself if I hadn't experienced it.

But human beings are neither good nor rational. It's not rational to be racist or to think you neighbours are witches. This doesn't mean it can't happen.

A less generous interpretation for his disbelief is possible. Perhaps he was a moral coward who was resisting listening to facts that could make him feel uncomfortable.

Perhaps he was exhibiting disablism himself in not taking me seriously. I was present when a young woman expressed astonishment when a blind woman remarked that people laughed at her. She said, ''I wouldn't think it would happen these days!''

She subscribed to the same fallacy I did as a child, that the Age of Reason had dawned. But she was also disablist herself.

This girl had just asked in puzzlement, ''Excuse me, why have you got a white stick?'' This woman was a real person with whom it was possible to have an in depth conversation. So how could she be blind? Disablist or what?

Portillo is extremely disablist. He says that experience shows that if you allow disability benefits, everyone will claim them fraudulently.

This is not true. The level of overclaiming is a little over 0%.

It's bad when a wheelchair bound person is spat at in the street. It's incredibly frustrating when society refuses to believe it happens. My adoptive mother said to me, ''I can't believe people say things to you in the street!''

I found other doctors even worse. They didn't even hear what I said about bullying.

They thought I was complaining about having a crippled physique for the sake of it. They gave me cold self righteous lectures on the theme that i was very lucky and should be grateful.

As I was in despair, this pseudo-virtuous sanctimony was not what I needed. The victim of a terrorist attack gets internet messages on how she should be thankful to have an artificial leg. She considers it a form of trolling.

I still feel furiously angry with these medical personnel. I feel they have betrayed me.

I'm angrier with them than with the original bullies. In the latter case, you can think, 'What can you expect from a pig but an oink?'

But perhaps I've missed the point. I had thought their job was to have my interests at heart.

Maybe I made a fundamental error, analogous to mistaking the Ku Klux Klan for the Race Equality Commission. This is obviously the case when health workers like Sitoshi San are around.

A father recently told BBC Wales of advice given to him by a doctor which we thought went out in the early 1970s. The doctor thought he should put his disabled son in an 'institution', forget about him and concentrate on his other children. And I thought doctors were there to be helpful. Jeez!

A mother told a TV show that when she expressed grief that her disabled son had been allowed to die in hospital, a nurse told her off. She accused her of being selfish.

The words really got under the mother's skin. She said her son had had a better quality of life than many 'normal' children. Looking at pictures of her children, she said, ''Tell me, which ones am I a good mother for loving, and which am I a selfish mother for loving?''

During our Eisteddfod preparations, a former nurse told me that in the 70s when doctors were usually men and nurses usually women who wore frilly uniforms,it was taken for granted that the doctors would go round pinging the nurses' bra straps and suspender belts. So God knows what liberties they took with the patients.

And all the time we were treating them like Sir Oracle!

In the late 70s or early 80s, I read in the paper of a young woman affected by the Thalidomide drug who had an adapted flat. The flat was constantly besieged by a mob.

She said it was scary, adding, ''Why would they want to harm me?'' I had asked myself that.

I didn't want to accept the reality of disablist prejudice. I preferred t believe that there might be some other explanation.

Of course it is painful to face up to it. But if have an ostrich policy, we will never be able to tackle it.

The people who put denialist posts under Alan Hennessy's article on Sitoshi San are not just would be emigrants to Telly Tubby Land. They are actively unpleasant.

Their attitude is that cripples should get up out of their wheelchairs and stop whingeing about trivial grievances. Who ever promised them a rose garden?

They know what the subject of the article. It is not about a lack of soap in the disabled toilet.

It is about an avowedly disablist massacre by a former so-called care worker.

They have been given all the evidence anyone could need that disability hate crime does exist, and they still don't accept it! Perhaps we should be thankful Dodo didn't perpetrate such a massacre in Cardiff when he was given the chance.
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:24 am    Post subject: governments and kids Reply with quote

For much of his short life, Ivan Cameron spent the day at a centre for kids with special needs. It did not long survive his need of it. It was closed down shortly after his death.

David Cameron gleefully went on a spree of closing down children's day centres up to the end of his time as prime minister. I don't know what his motivation was, but even his mother disapproved.

No sooner were he and his remaining family effectively evicted from 10 Downing Street, than he bought a resplendent new home to house them. He has a right to do whatever he likes with his money, but the hard expression on his face as caught by the camera on moving day was extremely repugnant.

Sam Cam was so ignorant of Tory history that she told someone off for lauding One Nation Toryism as an awful 'fascist'. She thought it meant not 'We're all in it together' but 'ein Reich ein Volk ein Fuhrer'.

Maybe that it what it means in Cameron's vocabulary. Perhaps he was never heard of the 'two nations' alluded to by Disraeli in his novel 'Sybil.' He does, though, exemplify the toff who has no understanding of how the other half lives.

Cameron said that Samantha had had an unconventional education. By this he meant that she had never been to boarding school. This is hardly unconventional. The vast majority of the population have never seen the inside of a boarding school. But these are not the people that Cameron mixes with.

I'm not saying that you have to be an old Etonian to sell working class school kids down the river. Didn't the Labour party do that in 1966 at the time of the Aberfan disaster? Dai invited me to put up a post on that. A good moment would be the fiftieth anniversary which will come up in October. But I don't know if this thread is the best p lace for it.
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dai



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Marianne,

I am glad that you have remembered my suggestion about Aberfan's anniversary - I did not because the local politics erupted in my face again with the machinery of their government keeping me up all night with its irritating grinding humming ... only this time no Democrats were involved directly but merely afterwards with the usual flat denials that anything was ever wrong - that their generator has always made that noise - that our neighbourhood is just that sort of place in which The People in Bed will always complain and blame somebody else for their not being able to sleep - they should go to their doctors to get a pill - they are worse than The People in Pain who went to their doctors to get a pill and then claimed that it deformed their children - you know, that Thalidomide lot who wanted The Democrats to sue their friends in the drug industry - no proof whatsover - that is all that The People in Wales ever want ... and that is why The Democrats in Wales constantly need to explain that really politics is all about constantly explaining why nothing can ever be done because nothing is ever wrong ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide#Aftermath_of_scandal

... Any way - as usual to come in late at night and read about your thoughts is always a pleasure and it has cheered me up considerably : I wish that I could describe such things as above in more explicit detail - names and dates, the factoids being collected etc but unfortunately the pace of everyday politicking is desperately slow and so often grinds to an absolute halt because we live in a Demockery and nothing can ever be done. Hence the quick dirty emotional fix of prodding and probing and ... gosh - it is like squeezing black heads ... no - I do not mean that in the way that The South Wales Police ... I mean just to relax and chat to The World in Wales ... gosh ... The Democrats' non-political systems are so slow to admit that that there are any problems ... but then presumeably their non-lawyers are duty bound to advise them to be sure that their victims are absolutely dead - preferably cremated to destroy any possible traces of the sorts of evidence that might be used in any court actions against their governments - before they ever admit that anything might have happened and that they wish to sincerely apologise to everybody for getting away with it with absolutely no personal liability because of the non-political non-legal non-sensical principle of " Sovereignty."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/sep/01/thalidomide-scandal-timeline

1953 - The anti-morning sickness drug thalidomide is created in Germany by the Grünenthal Group.

2012 - The inventor of thalidomide, the Grünenthal Group, releases a statement saying it regrets the consequences of the drug.
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dai



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Marianne,

I am glad that you have remembered my suggestion about Aberfan's anniversary - I did not because the local politics erupted in my face again with the machinery of their government keeping me up all night with its irritating grinding humming ... only this time no Democrats were involved directly but merely afterwards with the usual flat denials that anything was ever wrong - that their generator has always made that noise - that our neighbourhood is just that sort of place in which The People in Bed will always complain and blame somebody else for their not being able to sleep - they should go to their doctors to get a pill - they are worse than The People in Pain who went to their doctors to get a pill and then claimed that it deformed their children - you know, that Thalidomide lot who wanted The Democrats to sue their friends in the drug industry - no proof whatsover - that is all that The People in Wales ever want ... and that is why The Democrats in Wales constantly need to explain that really politics is all about constantly explaining why nothing can ever be done because nothing is ever wrong ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide#Aftermath_of_scandal

... Any way - as usual to come in late at night and read about your thoughts is always a pleasure and it has cheered me up considerably : I wish that I could describe such things as above in more explicit detail - names and dates, the factoids being collected etc but unfortunately the pace of everyday politicking is desperately slow and so often grinds to an absolute halt because we live in a Demockery and nothing can ever be done. Hence the quick dirty emotional fix of prodding and probing and ... gosh - it is like squeezing black heads ... no - I do not mean that in the way that The South Wales Police ... I mean just to relax and chat to The World in Wales ... gosh ... The Democrats' non-political systems are so slow to admit that that there are any problems ... but then presumeably their non-lawyers are duty bound to advise them to be sure that their victims are absolutely dead - preferably cremated to destroy any possible traces of the sorts of evidence that might be used in any court actions against their governments - before they ever admit that anything might have happened and that they wish to sincerely apologise to everybody for getting away with it with absolutely no personal liability because of the non-political non-legal non-sense of the non-principle of " Sovereignty."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/sep/01/thalidomide-scandal-timeline

1953 - The anti-morning sickness drug thalidomide is created in Germany by the Grünenthal Group.

2012 - The inventor of thalidomide, the Grünenthal Group, releases a statement saying it regrets the consequences of the drug.
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:05 am    Post subject: ching Reply with quote

The first house I can remember living in is an end of terrace dwelling in Tunnel Road Llanelli. I don't know why I feel such hiraeth for it. It was a perfectly ordinary house.

Next door to us were a family of three boys. We were on friendly terms with their parents, calling them Uncle and Auntie. We were always in and out of each other's houses. They were the closest that my adoptive sister and I had to brothers or male cousins. Maybe I thought they were my cousins.

The eldest boy - I will call him Gawaine - had flipper shaped hands growing directly out of his shoulders. I thought nothing of it as I had known him all my life. I assumed this was something that occurred spontaneously in nature from time to time.

Gawaine noticed I had allowed the strings on my Pinochio puppet to get tangled. He untangled them with his prehensile toes. As he could do everything, it never once occurred to me to pity him. It would not have been appropriate.

It is true that at secondary school, people constantly mocked his affliction. Even my sister found it funny when someone put bricks in his satchel, so when he heaved it up on to his shoulder as usual, he fell over.

He also had to contend with 'false acceptance'. Some people would dutifully answer when he spoke to them, but tried to keep the transaction to the bare minimum. You see this 'false acceptance' in instances of 'polite' racism too.

Perhaps Gawaine found this especially difficult to deal with as his parents would not allow him to feel self pity. In one way, their policy was not inappropriate. He was a notable swimmer.

His mother was annoyed when the local paper said she was 'overwhelmed' that he was the first thalidomide victim ever known to be able to swim breast stroke. She had no memory of saying such a thing, and thought it was overblown.

I did see a girl similarly afflicted on TV who was shell shocked about the crass questions she had been asked by an adult. Perhaps a child wouldn't know better, but she expected more of grown ups.

Gawaine went on to work in the DVLA in Swansea. I later heard that there was a term of abuse used by kids for their thalidomide affected peers, 'flid', but I never heard it when growing up. Unfortunately, children do violate each other's human rights.

It was not until I was about 14 that my adoptive mother told me that this deformity was caused by medication which was supposed to cure morning sickness. Gawaine's mother had taken only half a tablet as she was worried about the effects. If she had taken a whole one, his lower limbs would have been affected as well.

She did worry about it for the rest of the pregnancy, constantly asking her husband, ''Do you think the baby will be all right?'' When Gawaine was a baby, she had constantly to explain his deformity to people, something she found emotionally exhausting.

My adoptive mother moaned, ''He can't go to university! He can't look after himself!'' He could work for a living. I thought Gawaine was a success story.

He died of cancer of the blood aged 34 in 1995. My adoptive father commented rightly or wrongly that those affected by thalidomide had an increased risk of cancer.

He went on to moan about his swimming and other activities as if they just made him more tragic. To my adoptive father, it was not Gawaine's death but his existence that was tragic.

I was particularly struck that he thought his active interests merely accentuated the tragedy. Perhaps he thought it would have been more appropriate for Gawaine to sit in a chair brooding.

''I felt sorry for him!'', he intoned lugubriously. I was shocked as I had never once felt sorry for him. I answered mentally, ''Has it ever occurred to you, Dad, that Gawaine probably felt sorry for you too, because you're such a prick?''

I was upset as a young adult when a friend satirised doctors who asked pregnant women, ''Do you want tablets that will cripple your kid and turn it into a monster?'' Historically, people spoke of 'monstrous' births but this is not an appropriate way to talk.

I later had to have dealings with a woman professionally who was not very nice. I tried to make allowances for her as she might have been embittered by bullying. She looked too young to have been affected by thalidomide, but had the deformities associated with it.

I had to leave my son behind when seeing her as he found an inappropriate humour in looking at her unusual body. I mentioned this to an adult friend who had bipolar disorder, and a great fear of bodily afflictions. ''Oh, you'd be better off dead if you've got that!'', he said.

I was astonished. I knew it wasn't true. But it seems that most people have not known thalidomide victims all their lives, and have daft ideas about them.

I found out from the 'Chronicle of the Twentieth Century' series that doctors knew that thalidomide caused deformities in 1958. So why was it prescribed to Gawaine's mother in 1961?

It appears to have been produced in West Germany. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies accepted that it was connected to the epidemic of serious deformities in babies when it was noted that the epidemic hadn't crossed the Berlin Wall.

It is well known that the powers that be refused to pay out compensation. They did not give in until campaigning journalists - I think on the Times - shamed them publicly. And then the compensation was not sufficient.

Compensation was not the first thing on people's minds.In 1962 a doctor and family in Belgium were actually acquitted of killing a baby Corinne Van de Put who was affected by the Thalidomide drug. It was held to be for the best. They received supportive letters from all over the world.

I can't sufficiently express my disconnect with this sort of thinking. I heard of a British woman who had to bring up her baby affected by Thalidomide alone. Her husband had given her an ultimatum. She had to choose between him and THAT.

According to the historian Dominic Sandbrook, British doctors were given instructions by the government to prevent the birth of more thalidomide babies by any means necessary. This was giving them the green light to ignore the law. Abortion was illegal, but the government favoured it here, as they saw the birth of more severely deformed babies as a plague that would harm society in some way.

Alison Lapper was too young to have been affected by thalidomide, but she did have similar deformities. When she was a baby on the maternity ward, a nurse told her mother that the baby she could hear crying down the corridor was deformed and subnormal and would not live long. She didn't know she was talking to the baby's mother.

Perhaps it is not surprising that her mother could not bond with her after that. Alison grew up in an institution where the staff referred to the deformed kids as 'strange little creatures' and threw them around the room for fun. When they went to the beach for the day, they cleared it. Everyone ran away as if deformity was catching.

Doctors subjected kids affected by thalidomide to all sorts of painful and inappropriate treatment in an attempt to 'normalise' their appearance. Perhaps they had good intentions, but they were only making things worse.

Celebrities like Jeremy Clarkson came out with all sorts of specious reasons to explain why they did not want Alison Lapper's statue in Trafalgar Square. They were not quite as moronic as Jac o' the North, and were aware they could be heading for trouble. They could not, in any case, say that the statue of a disabled person would desecrate the place as Nelson's Column was already there!

Newspapers ran a story of a Mrs So-and-So aged 18 in the late 70s, the first person affected by thalidomide to pass her driving test. The 'Mrs' title should not surprise us. Until the early 90s, women especially often married in their teens.

Or perhaps some people would be surprised. A woman afflicted by thalidomide was told by a female teacher at school that she would never marry. She said, ''Get used to the idea now, and you won't be disappointed.''
She said she wished she had known the teacher's address when sending out wedding invitations.

It was not always a good thing. Some inadequate people wanted to marry a person with thalidomide caused deformities as they thought they would be able to dominate them.

My son and I went to an astronomy lecture at Cardiff University. It was interesting, and basic enough for me to understand. But for a long time I couldn't concentrate.

The lecturer had flipper shaped hands growing directly out of his shoulders. I remembered my adoptive mother's whiny words about Gawaine, ''He can't go to university! He can't look after himself!''

I had fallen for this disempowering weakening crap. It couldn't be true or how did the lecturer get to be a lecturer? For some time, I was suffused with rage.

The surviving Thalidomide victims are heading for middle age and old age. No one knows how ageing will affect their bodies. I see from Dai's post that some of them think the new compensation package is derisory and they are most probably right.

In fact, a few years ago, doctors began dishing Thalidomide out again in South America as it does have some useful functions. They warned pregnant women not to take it. But some women took it not realising that they had become pregnant. So there are younger Thalidomide victims.

My adoptive father felt the need to give credit where it was due. He said that it caused deformities but it did cure morning sickness! Ginger root and other ginger products will usually cure morning sickness, and they don't have any side effects.

Thalidomide exploded a medical myth which had long been believed to be a scientific fact viz: no medication taken by a pregnant woman can affect the developing embryo. It was said that it could not 'cross the placenta.'

Of course, doctors were in denial for a long time. They are even worse than most people at accepting they could be wrong. These days, pregnant women are warned to be wary about taking any medication.


Last edited by marianneh on Wed May 31, 2017 6:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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dai



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marianne - that was a really strong post and I am full of admiration for you.
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