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Nomos & Nomostic-like ideas in ideologies

 
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dai



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:01 pm    Post subject: Nomos & Nomostic-like ideas in ideologies Reply with quote

I casually started this thread 09-07-08 but it was less about what Nomos is -

http://repwblic.informe.com/viewtopic.php?p=648#648

The Nomos & Republic of Heaven:Non-Theism & Politics

- and over the years ( just trying to review my jottings there ) I mentioned -

I've been kicking around the word Nomos, referring to the ancient Greek idea of a God of Law and Order, for some years, and have simultaneously been pointing out to people that religion and politics are indivisible. ...

... I'd say that assuming that the material universe had a beginning, and that this as far as we know is the only one that exists and the only one that is possible, then one can reason that what has come into existence must be governed by some ultimate equation of physics that has not yet been discovered by science ( and may prove to be undiscoverable if the neccessary evidence is beyond the reach of scientific enquiry ). I presume that this ultimate " Law of the Cosmos " that I have dubbed the " Nomos " is the only thing that we can reasonably assume to have pre-existed the universe that we live in.

Although the " Nomos " was historically a Greek daemon or minor deity celebrated as the originator and maintainer of all laws, I do not envisage it as a god in the same sense of the modern idea of an ultimate monotheist God, a sort of ideal human being writ large across the cosmos as an all-loving, all-powerful, all-wise etc and pre-existing Creator of the Universe. The Nomos has no self awareness or will to create, yet its operation in its expression through the laws of Nature has given rise to the development of human beings as a species that possesses an awareness and creativity that in our experience is unparallelled, if perhaps flawed. It is the operation of the Nomos itself that enables us to ask such questions as this and to imagine the possibilities of what might have pre-existed the universe.

[ City State ( i.e. Leon ) then offered critical objections to what I was observing.]

[ I was prompted to start the thread because of liking Quaker Non-theist David Boulton's book " Gerrard Winstanley and The Republic of Heaven." ]

http://www.quakerbooks.org/gerrard_winstanley_and_the_republic_of_heaven.php

http://www.sofn.org.uk/reviews/winstanley.html

NEWS ARTICLE http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/05/religion.uk

VERY GOOD ESSAYS http://www.universalistfriends.org/boulton.html

A TASTE OF WHAT IS IN David Boulton's ESSAYS

"... But Winstanley was not content to argue that the poor would be saved. In The Mysterie of God and the two pamphlets which followed, he teaches that it is the poor who are to be God's agents in bringing about the kingdom of heaven on earth. When he dares to connect the poor with the radical sectaries, the subversive and revolutionary potential of his doctrine is clear, to priest and magistrate alike.

In his next two pamphlets Winstanley presses the point with a daringly metaphorical interpretation of Biblical scripture. The devil is not a person but the embodiment of selfishness and self-seeking. God is Reason, or seflessness, or community. Christ is not "a man [who] lived and died long ago at Jerusalem" but "the power of the spirit within you". God is not to be looked for "in a place of glory beyond the sun, but within yourself... He that looks for a God outside himself... worships he knows not what, but is... deceived by the imagination of his own heart". Winstanley shared the millenarian expectations of his contemporaries, but the Christ who would come again would be a spirit "rising in despised sons and daughters", an "indwelling power of reason", a "sea of truth" which would wash away corruption and ensure that the lowly and meek inherited the earth. ..."

[ Since the scope of the thread was wide I wandered off a lot - ]

The quest for The Nomos seems to be making some objective progress if this is to be believed - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-28592838

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jremlZvNDuk

Michio Kaku expressing much that I am talking about when debating The Nomos without his making the leap forward ( or backwards ) into addressing such things as how to lay the fundamental basis of a Meta-Ideology.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Holmes

... In the 1920s, Holmes published the following statement of beliefs ... [ including ] ... I believe in God, the Living Spirit Almighty; one, indestructible, absolute and self-existent Cause. ... This One manifests itself in and through all creation, but is not absorbed by its creation. ... I believe that the Universal Spirit, which is God, operates through a Universal Mind, which is the Law of God; and that I am surrounded by this Creative Mind which receives the direct impress of my thought and acts upon it. ...


[ THEN I HAD A BLURT ]

HOLMES' IDEAS ARE CLOSELY ALLIED TO NOMOSTICISM - BUT THE NOMOS IS NOT ACTUALLY GOD : THE NOMOS IS " THE DIVINE / COSMIC / NATURAL LAW " WHICH GOVERNS THE EVOLVING ENVIRONMENTS WITHIN WHICH THE HUMAN SPECIES ARE EVOLVING ( OR DEVOLVING ) - I.E. HOMO SAPIENS ( OR HOMO STUPENS ) HAS TO OBEY " THE LAW " OR DIE BECAUSE IF OUR ACTIONS ARE NOT IN CONFORMITY WITH THE NOMOS THEN WE DO NOT DO THOSE THINGS WHICH LEAD TO OUR LIVES CONTINUING E.G. OUR MASTERY OVER OTHER SPECIES AND THE ENVIRONMENTS WHICH WE SHARE WITH THEM HAS TIME AND AGAIN PROVEN TO BE ILLUSORY : THE NOMOS IS " THE UNBREAKABLE LAW " AND OUR " MASTERY " IS NO MORE THAN EITHER MISUNDERSTANDING OR NOT WANTING TO UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES OF OUR ACTIONS ...

... OUR ACTIONS RESULT IN SENSATIONS - WHICH RESULT IN EMOTIONS - WHICH RESULT IN COGNITIONS - WHICH RESULT IN ACTIONS - WHICH RESULT IN SENSATIONS ETC ... AND I ARGUE THAT SPIRITUALITY RESULTS FROM THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SENSATIONS AND EMOTIONS - RELIGION FROM THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EMOTIONS AND COGNITIONS - POLITICS FROM THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN COGNITIONS AND ACTIONS - ECONOMICS FROM THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ACTIONS AND SENSATIONS ... SCIENCE FROM THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SENSATIONS AND COGNITIONS AND CULTURE FROM THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EMOTIONS AND ACTIONS ... AND THIS IS " THE MODEL " - OUR COLLECTIVELY AGREED MODEL OF " THE WORLD " WHICH WE HAVE MUTUALLY CONSTRUCTED OUT OF THE IDEAS MADE AVAILABLE TO US.

IN ORDER TO USE THEM MORE SUCCESSFULLY WE COLLECTIVELY AND MUTUALLY STRUCTURE THE IDEAS WHICH ARE AVAILABLE TO US INTO PATTERNS IN ORDER TO ORGANISE OUR OWN VERSIONS OF " THE MODEL " : IN OTHER WORDS WE TRY TO MAKE SENSE OF " THE WORLD " NOT ONLY BY INFERRING SUCH PATTERNS BUT BY USING THEM FOR THE PURPOSE OF IMPROVING AND SECURING OUR LIVES THROUGH OUR SOCIAL PARTICIPATION IN ACTIVITIES WHICH BOTH DEVELOP AND DEPEND UPON IDEOLOGIES - AND THIS IS WHY THE SCOPE OF REPUBLICANISM - THE PURSUIT OF " THE PUBLIC INTEREST " - IS SO MUCH BROADER THAN POLITICS AND WHY REPUBLICANISM IS ALSO CONCERNED WITH ECONOMICS, SPIRITUALITY, RELIGION, SCIENCE, CULTURE AND SO MANY OTHER SUBJECTS WHERE IDEOLOGIES ARE BEING ANALYSED : HENCE MY DEFINITION THAT IN ORDER TO QUALIFY AS A REPUBLICANISM AN IDEOLOGY MUST BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN NOT ONLY ITSELF BUT OTHER IDEOLOGIES AS WELL - AND IT IS NOT VALID TO CLAIM A THING TO BE A " REPUBLICANISM " IF IT DISMISSES THOSE OTHER IDEOLOGIES AS BEING MERELY " FALSE CONSCIOUSNESSES."

" TRUE REPUBLICANISMS " ARE NOT MECHANISTIC CONSTITUTIONALISMS WHICH TREAT THEIR POLITICAL SYSTEMS AS MERELY PROCESSES TO APPLY - THEY HAVE TO BE " META-IDEOLOGIES " WHICH CAN EXPLAIN THE ROLES OF DIFFERENT IDEOLOGIES AND PROMOTE A PLURALISTIC PUBLIC DISCOURSE BETWEEN THEM FOR THE PURPOSES OF IMPROVING THE UNDERSTANDING OF A SOCIETY AND THE FUNCTIONING OF THE STATE : THE PURPOSES OF A REPUBLICAN STATE ARE ESSENTIALLY CHARITABLE NOT AUTHORITARIAN AND THE LAWS WHICH IT CONSTRUCTS ARE PRIMARILY ADVISORY NOT PUNITIVE - THEREFORE ITS CONSTITUTION IS CONSTRUCTED IN ORDER TO DEFEND IT AGAINST THOSE WHO WOULD SUBVERT IT IN ORDER TO ABUSE IT TO OBTAIN POWER OVER OTHERS BY SUBSTITUTING THEIR OWN PRIVATE INTERESTS FOR " DE RE PUBLICA " - THE PUBLIC INTEREST - AS EMBODIED IN THE LAWS ... IN ORDER TO SECURE THE ALTRUISMS IN THE LAWS THE " NON-PRINCIPLE " OF " SOVEREIGNTY " IS REJECTED BY REPUBLICANS BECAUSE IT REDUCES " THE RULE OF LAW " TO A NONSENSE TO INTRODUCE A " NON-LAW " WHICH CAN ARBITRARILY LICENCE ANYBODY TO NOT BE ACCOUNTABLE TO " THE LAW."

" THE LAW " IN QUESTION IS OF COURSE " THE NATURAL LAW " FROM WHICH ARISES " THE LAW OF GRAVITY " - " THE UNBREAKABLE LAW " - " THE NOMOS."

[ Then recently I had a text conversation with Y - ]

[ TEXT CONVERSATION WITH "Y" ]

Y - Reading Greek Qabalah (Isopsephia). Interesting "pun" - Jesus Christ adds up to same number as "and his number is 666"

dai - Oh dear : I quite like numbers ... You read more of this Greek stuff than me : could you keep an eye out for " Nomos " the little god that the judges honoured ?

Y - Not so much a "little God" but an aspect of Zefs, the Big God.

Y - http://www.hellenicgods.org/nomos---nomos

Y - (Should be "whom all revere" not "reverse" in Hymn above)

dai - Oh ! Thankyou ! KISS-KISS !

---------------

dai - Sleepless pain again : reading that scholarly website & coveting his essay on Nomos - have you corresponded with him personally ? How is he on moral/copyright ?


[ AND AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT I THINK THAT NINE YEARS LATER - GIVEN THE FACT THAT THREE YEARS AGO BEGAN TO STRONGLY OBJECT TO DEMOCRACY AND BECAME AN ALL-OUT RADICAL ADVOCATING FOR " PURE REPUBLICANISM " I.E. " NOMOCRACY " - I OUGHT TO GO BACK TO THE ROOT OF THE THING ... DO YOU KNOW THAT " RAD-" MEANS " ROOT " ? ... HOW ABOUT REPLACING THE LEEK WITH THE RADISH ? ... IT IS WHITE TO THE CORE BUT WITH A THIN PURPLE SKIN - LIKE ME ? ... AND MOST PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE THE RESULT OF TRYING TO BITE A RADISH - AND WHEN TRYING TO SWALLOW THEM WHOLE THEY OFTEN CHOKE.]
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dai



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What prompted me to start this thread was writing this email - the imagery in this poem is undoubtedly Nomostic-like :

Dear Friends,

I had a sleepless night and ... well Zoroastrianism led to Akhenatenism and ... I came across this ...

David B Lawrence

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=806cIWGI5WQ

Yung-Chia Ta-Shih ( a Zen Buddhist sage who flourished c700 AD )

One nature perfect and pervading circulates in all natures
One reality, all comprehensive, contains within itself all realities
The one Moon reflects itself wherever there is a sheet of water
And all the moons in the waters are embraced within the one moon
The Dharma body [the Absolute] of all Buddhas enters into my own being
And my own being is found in union with theirs
The Inner Light is beyond praise and blame
Like space it knows no boundaries
Yet it is even here, within us, ever retaining its serenity and fullness
It is only when you hunt for it that you lose it
You cannot take hold of it, but equally you cannot get rid of it
And while you can do neither, it goes on its own way
You remain silent and it speaks, you speak and it is dumb
The great gate of charity is wide open, with no obstacles before it.

http://goldenageofgaia.com/spiritual-essays/cross-cultural-spirituality/akhenaten-worshipper-sun-surely/

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I am just going to take a look at some of those other animations and quotations -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L4jATaFtcM - Arthur Eddington 1927

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJNI3F7A720 - Arthur Eddington 1927

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkiPbuWG6XY - Arthur Edington 1927


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWBDXuNkF7s - Richard Feynman 1963

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAv2M1WWHB0 - Richard Feynman 1963

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49p1KSQzpoM - Richard Feynman 1963


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa1_kHEQ2gU - Albert Einstein 1931

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAUF9fv6Hqs - Albert Einstein 1930

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ8Ds1mETLs - Albert Einstein 1924


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZokQov_aH0

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I think that you can see from those that I am not advocating some kind of superstitious belief but rather that I am addressing an organising idea which has time and again re-appeared in human thought and that some of its earliest recorded manifestations were in Ancient Greek philosophy and were applied almost immediately in their arguments about making laws.


Last edited by dai on Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dai



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Y knows the author of this webpage and thinks that I might take the lot - but I just want to take enough to explain the origins of " The Nomos."

http://www.hellenicgods.org/nomos---nomos

HellenicGods.org

Nómos - (Gr. Νόμος, ΝΟΜΟΣ; not to be confused with νομός, spelled the same but the accent on the second syllable) Pronounced: NOH-mohs.

NÓMOS - ΝΟΜΟΣ

Nómos is Divine Law

Nómos is the personification of Divine Law and is a manifestation of Zefs (Zeus; Gr. Ζεύς). In texts about Greek philosophy, there is usually a discussion distinguishing between law (nómos with a small-case n) as a human construct versus phýsis (Gr. Φύσις), nature. Thus in general terms, it must be understood that when the philosophers speak of nómos, they are not referring to the God or divine principle, but are using the word a little differently.

[ GOOD : THAT GOES WELL WITH POST-MODERNIST REPUBLICANISMS ]

[ REMEMBER THAT I AM ARGUING THAT BELIEF IN GOD AS LAWGIVER IS AN OPTIONAL EXTRA : WHATEVER OUR SPIRITUAL BELIEFS WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT THE COSMOS IS AN ORDERED PLACE - AND I CLASSIFY ATHEISMS AS RELIGION BECAUSE THEY SYSTEMATICALLY PROPAGATE THEIR BELIEF SYSTEMS IN SAME WAYS AS THEISMS, DEISMS, BBC ETC.]


Compare this view of law to that of the Orphic hymn to the deity of the same name:

The holy king of Gods and men I call,

Celestial Law, the righteous seal of all:

The seal which stamps whate'er the earth contains,

And all conceal'd within the liquid plains:

Stable, and starry, of harmonious frame,

Preserving laws eternally the same.

Thy all-composing pow'r in heaven appears,

Connects its frame, and props the starry spheres;

And shakes weak Envy with tremendous sound,

Toss'd by thy arm in giddy whirls around.

'Tis thine, the life of mortals to defend,

And crown existence with a blessed end;

For thy command alone, of all that lives

Order and rule to ev'ry dwelling gives:

Ever observant of the upright mind,

And of just actions the companion kind;

Foe to the lawless, with avenging ire,

Their steps involving in destruction dire.

Come, bless, abundant pow'r, whom all revere,

By all desir'd, with favr'ing mind draw near;

Give me thro' life, on thee to fix my fight,

And ne'er forsake the equal paths of right. [1]

[1] Orphéfs (Orpheus) Hymn LXIV (LXIII in earlier editions of Taylor's translation) To Law, trans. Thomas Taylor, 1792; found here in Hymns and Initiations: The Mystical Hymns of Orpheus, The Prometheus Trust [England by Antony Rowe, Chippenham, Wiltshire], Vol. V of the TTS; p. 129.


The hymn is not speaking of law as a human construct, but a divine or natural law which gives order to, and protects the universe and its inhabitants. At lines seven and eight, the hymn depicts Nómos as the overarching Law which arranges and governs the Kósmos (Cosmos; Gr. Κόσμος), the Natural Law. The hymn moves on to praise the aspect of Law which is Justice, and that this Justice exacts a penalty on the lawless, ending with a prayer to be mindful of the authority of Nómos and to never forsake the pursuit of his spirit. Thus, there is a clear implication that human law must mirror divine law in justice.

...............

Nómos and Thǽmis

So, if Nómos is divine Law, who is Thǽmis (Themis; Gr. Θέμις) and why is this Goddess included in a discussion of Law? Thǽmis is the daughter of Ouranós (Ouranós being a pre-form of Zefs; Gr. Οὐρανός) and Yi (Ge = Earth; Gr. Γῆ). Thǽmis is the face and voice of divine Law, and with her oracular power reveals it to mortals. The Orphic hymn to Thǽmis does not speak of her dominion over Law and Justice, but, rather, speaks of her oracular ability. But this oracular ability is intimately connected with Law and Justice:

"Themis, the myths tell us, was the first to introduce divinations and sacrifices and ordinances which concern the Gods, and to instruct men in the ways of obedience to laws and of peace. Consequently men who preserve what is holy with respect to the Gods and the laws of men are called ‘law-guardians’ (thesmophulakes [ed. θεσμοϕύλακας]) and ‘law-givers’ (thesmothetai [ed. θεσμοθέτας]), and we say that Apollon at the moment when he is to return the oracular responses, is ‘issuing laws and ordinances’ (themisteuein [ed. θεμιστεύειν]), in view of the fact that Themis was the discoveress of oracular responses." [5]

And Zefs:

"whispers words of wisdom to Themis as she sits leaning towards him." [6]

[5] Diódohros Sikælióhtis (Diodorus Siculus; Διόδωρος Σικελιώτης) Library of History Book V. 67. 4; trans. C. H. Oldfather, 1939; found here in the 2000 Harvard [Cambridge, MA and London, England] edition of Diodorus Siculus Library of History, Loeb LCL 340, p. 279.

[6] Homeric hymn to Zefs (Zeus; Gr. Ζεύς, ΖΕΎΣ) To the Son of Kronos Most High, trans. Hugh Evelyn-White, 1914; found here in the 1936 Heinemann [London]/Harvard [Cambridge, Mass.] edition, Loeb Vol. 57, Hesiod, The Homeric Hymns, and Homerica, p. 449.


Thǽmis, Apóllohn, and Nómos

Thǽmis received the oracle from her mother Yi. Thǽmis then gave the oracle to Apóllohn (Gr. Ἀπόλλων). Some sources say that she first gave it to Phívi (Phoebe: Gr. Φοίβη) who then gave it to Apóllohn, the important point being that Thǽmis had the oracle and it was at last given to Apóllohn.


"...Apollo learned the art of prophecy from Pan (ed. Gr. Πᾶν), the son of Zeus (ed. Zefs; Gr. Ζεύς) and Hybris, and came to Delphi (ed. Dælphí; Gr. Δελφοί), where Themis at that time used to deliver oracles; and when the snake Python, which guarded the oracle, would have hindered him from approaching the chasm, he killed it and took over the oracle."
[7]

Thus Thǽmis is a pre-form of Apóllohn, and Apóllohn, like Thǽmis, speaks the will of his father:

"for Apollo hath power, for that he sitteth on the right hand of Zeus." [8]

This image of Apóllohn sitting on the right hand of Zefs (Zeus; Gr. Ζεύς), symparædros (Gr. Συμπαρεδρος = joint-throne-holder) to Zefs, can be likened to that of Thǽmis receiving Zefs' whispered words, making Apóllohn the chief minister of Nómos, the manifestation of the Law and Justice of Zefs.

[7] Apollódohros (Apollodorus; Gr. Ἀπολλόδωρος) The Library I.IV.I, trans. James George Frazer, 1921; found here in the 1990 Harvard [Cambridge, Mass./London] edition, Loeb Vol. 121, Apollodorus The Library Vol.1, p. 27.

[8] Kallímakhos (Callimachus; Gr. Καλλίμαχος) hymn To Apollo 27-29, trans. A. W. Mair and G. R. Mair,1921; found here in the 1989 Harvard [Cambridge, Mass./London] edition, Loeb Vol.129, Callimachus Hymns and Epigrams, p. 51.
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dai



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.culturemachine.net/index.php/cm/article/view/25/32

Culture Machine, Vol 7 (2005)

Nomos, Nosos and Bios - in the body politic - Eugene Thacker

In the eighth book of The Republic, the discussion between Socrates and his interlocutors on the ideal political society turns to the types of 'imperfect societies.' A central concern throughout The Republic is the constitution and maintenance of political order, the order of sovereignty and law (nomos). Plato has Socrates devote a significant portion of this discussion to the deleterious effects of democracies. No doubt intended by Plato as a critique of the kind of democratic polis found in fifth and fourth century Athens, Plato -- through Socrates's exposition -- suggests that the greatest danger in democracy is in fact the excess of opinion in matters of governance. In a remarkable passage, Socrates employs a medical analogy to talk about the 'illness' of democracy :

" Just as a sickly body needs only a slight push from outside to become ill, and sometimes even without any external influence becomes divided by factions within itself, so too doesn't a city that is in the same kind of condition as that body, on a small pretext -- men brought in as allies from outside, from a city under an oligarchy, by the members of one party, from a city under a democracy, by members of the other -- fall sick and do battle with itself, and sometimes even without any external influence become divided by faction ? (1991: 235 [VIII, 556e])1 "

This passage assumes a number of other analogies made earlier in The Republic. Primary among them is the notion of the 'body politic,' or the view of the state in terms of the human body (2003: 55 [II, 368e-369b]; 153-54 [IV, 444a-e]). Though Plato never uses the term 'body politic,' the idea of comparing the natural body of the human being to the body of the polis was not unknown to the Greeks. ... [ INTERESTING STUFF BUT NOT RELEVANT HERE ] ... This basic method of analogizing the body politic from the body natural would influence later iterations of the body politic in Aristotle, Cicero, John of Salisbury, Marsilius of Padua, Johannes Althusius, Jean Bodin, and of course Thomas Hobbes, and it plays a central role in the increasing secularization of the 'body politic' concept during the 16th and 17th centuries.

But the 'life' of the body politic does not follow a straight, progressive line from Plato's Republic, to Henry VIII's denial of Papal Supremacy, to the beheadings of the French Revolution. In fact, it is filled with fits and starts, filled with strange, confused, hybrid anatomies (e.g., an almost cannibalistic body politic in the Medieval Eucharist, a 'two-headed' body politic in debates between Church and State, a clockwork body politic in Hobbes). More importantly, the discourse of the body politic in political philosophy is always accompanied by a reflection on the illness and diseases of the body politic. The passage above from The Republic is but one example. As Socrates explains, the body politic is threatened by democracy; it is threatened from within by disorder caused by an uneducated, untrained multitude making decisions of governance and driven by the dark regions of appetite or desire.

... [ SKIP TWO PARAGRAPHS : THIS IS A FULL & INTERESTING ESSAY ] ...

In fact, the entire second half of Book VIII and all of Book IX of The Republic can be understood as a single argument: the greatest threat to the body politic comes from within. Surprisingly, Plato spends relatively little time discussing war or foreign invasion, other than to comment on the characteristics of the auxiliary or guardian class. What is of primary concern are the elements that may threaten the body politic from within, the political disorder brought about by diseased forms of government. That is, of central concern for Plato is the relation between the order of law (nomos) and the various elements that would threaten law with disorder or 'disease' (nosos). What is at stake in this tension-filled relation between nomos and nosos? In one sense, it is nothing less than 'life itself,' a social bios that is at once more than mere animal, organismic life, and yet never quite separated from its naturalistic base. Perhaps it is in the space between The Republic and the Epidemics, that we can begin to identify a specific type of 'life itself' taking shape, a life (bios) that is always undone from within by a disease (nosos) that threatens order and law (nomos), be it in the shape of an actual epidemic, or the diseases caused by the imperfect societies of democracy, oligarchy, and tyranny.

... [ SOME GLIMPSES INTO THE REST OF THIS ESSAY : GO READ IT ! ] ...

Nomos, nosos, and bios in U.S. biodefense initiatives

The triangulation of nomos, nosos, and bios is still with us today, but, of course, in a markedly different historical context. The U.S. 'war on terror' is but one example. On one level, we are witnessing the development of a social, political, and military consciousness surrounding bioterrorism. Although bioterrorist acts had certainly been committed prior to 9-11, it has only been recently that bioterror has become a central issue in national and homeland security. ... If this is a pattern, then the medium is indeed the message. The aims of such bioterrorist attacks seem to be geared more towards disruption than destruction. A news feature and heightened public anxiety are as important as the actual contagion of individuals.

Biology, code, and war: Foucault's Collège lectures

Often, such encounters between politics and life are described as 'biopolitical.' But, at the same time that the term has gained a degree of widespread use, it has also lost much of its specificity. What is biopolitics today, in an era dominated by concerns over terrorism, world poverty, national security, genocide, and global health? Is all politics also biopolitics? How shall we understand the bio- of biopolitics? Equally important is the question, What is not biopolitical ? ... ... ... Undoubtedly, the work of Michel Foucault has done the most to theorize the notion of biopolitics. The passages most often referenced from Foucault in this regard are those that appear near the end of the first volume of The History of Sexuality. There, in proposing a shift in the nature of power relations from the sovereign 'right of death' to the modern 'power over life,' Foucault suggested that modern power relations functioned in a more bottom-up, coercive, distributive fashion, rooted not in the absolutism of the monarch but in the pervasiveness of institutions and modes of governance (1978: 135-45). ...

Consider plague

... It is interesting, then, to situate Hobbes' political etiology within the context of plague and public health in England. While the Great Plague saw actual disease impact a mercantilist view of the population, we see Hobbes responding to actual civil war in England by analogizing disease and civil discord. In this sense, Foucault's threefold aspects of biopolitics - a medical-biological view of the population, a statistical-informatic means of accounting for population, and a political condition of war and security with regards to population - can be witnessed in the case of mid-seventeenth century England. Perhaps we can rephrase Foucault's formulation of biopolitics, and suggest that biopolitics is the condition in which population, information, and security become intertwined in a set of practices, responses, and preparations. Biopolitics is the nexus of biology, code, and war, in which the distinction between disease and disorder is made indistinct. ...

Curing machines; respecifying biopolitics

... While Agamben's work does much to develop our understanding of the political and philosophical mechanisms of biopolitics, something is left out, something which is also absent in the work of Hardt and Negri: the role of medicine in relation to the 'life itself' of biopolitics. For Agamben, medicine is just one particular form that biopolitics takes in the broader meeting of sovereign power and homo sacer (thus Agamben traces the beginnings of biopolitics to Roman law). For Hardt and Negri, biopolitics is primarily the relation between social life and labor, with medicine or bioscience not being a factor at all (although even Marx commented on the transformations of the 'species being' in labor power). In these interpretations, one cannot account for the way that a hegemonic science articulates 'life itself'; one cannot account for the character of the bio- part in biopolitics. Recall that, for Foucault, it was precisely the role and historically-changing meanings of medicine that mediated between politics and life. ...

War as biology, biology as war (a digression)

One always makes an exception for 'life.' Is there any other way? In this regard biopolitics is precisely the articulation of 'life' as an exception. There is no better cultural expression of this than the films, novels, and games that constitute the 'zombie-epidemic' genre. Having gained a great deal of popularity recently with films such as 28 Days Later, Resident Evil: Apocalypse, the slapstick Shaun of the Dead, and an un-ironic remake of Dawn of the Dead, the genre has also expanded into comics (Criminal Macabre) and video games (the Resident Evil franchise). ... The Foucauldian 'curing machines' (machines à guérir) have been put into place, such that the act of healing (guérir) is always defined in a state of war (guerre). There is an ambiguity here regarding the dual functions of curing and combating. ...

The dissolution of the body politic

From the perspective of political philosophy, the body politic is always a matter of constitution. Even in more recent critiques of the nature of sovereign power implied in the body politic, what is at stake is still the constitution, the formation of the body politic, even if this constitution is bifurcated along the lines of 'constituent' and 'constituted' powers. ... Whatever the case may be, it is worth reiterating the principle that unites this corporeality of the body politic: a foundationalism surrounding 'life itself.' While rarely described in specific terms, it is nevertheless this decidedly corporeal notion of 'life itself' that is at the core of the constitution of the body politic. ... This is a shift from the biology of the body politic to a necrology of the body politic. Instead of focusing on the narrative of constitution of the body politic, a necrology would focus on the furtive, fragmentary, admissions of the dissolution of the body politic. ...

From biology to necrology

In a sense, however, this biopolitical situation is to be found wherever a governmentality of public health confronts a medical emergency that is also a perceived political emergency (war, famine, epidemic, natural disaster). Indeed, the historical examples Foucault gives of biopolitics all suggest that public health always develops in a state of exception. ...

... Recall Aesop's 'fable of the belly,' here given a decidedly militaristic interpretation by translator L. W. Daly:

The belly and the feet were arguing about their importance, and when the feet kept saying that they were so much stronger that they even carried the stomach around, the stomach replied, 'But, my good friends, if I didn't take in food you wouldn't be able to carry anything.' So it is with armies too. Great numbers would mean nothing if the generals did not exercise good judgment. (Aesop, 1961: 148)

A necrology is thus one attempt to think beyond the genealogy of the 'fable of the belly.'

... [ C'MON - THIS IS REALLY GOOD : GO READ ALL OF IT - PLEASE ! ] ...

Thacker, E.. Nomos, Nosos and Bios. Culture Machine, North America, 7 1 01 2004.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)

The Republic (Greek: Πολιτεία, Politeia; Latin: De Re Publica ) is a Socratic dialogue, written by Plato around 380 BC, concerning the definition of justice (δικαιοσύνη), the order and character of the just city-state and the just man - for this reason, ancient readers used the name On Justice as an alternative title ... It is Plato's best-known work, and has proven to be one of the world's most influential works of philosophy and political theory, both intellectually and historically ... In it, Socrates along with various Athenians and foreigners discuss the meaning of justice and examine whether or not the just man is happier than the unjust man ... The participants also discuss the theory of forms, the immortality of the soul, and the roles of the philosopher and of poetry in society ...

... In his A History of Western Philosophy (1945), Bertrand Russell identifies three parts to the Republic:

Books I–V: the eutopia portraying the ideal community and the education of the Guardians, parting from attempting to define justice;

Books VI–VII: define “philosopher”, since philosophers are the ideal rulers of such a community;

Books VIII–X: discuss the pros and cons of various practical forms of government.

... [ BUT WHILST THE WIDELY READ " REPUBLIC / POLITEIA " IS ABOUT " JUSTICE " ( I.E. IS ESSENTIALLY A RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT MORALITY ) PLATO'S LESS WIDELY READ BOOK IS " THE LAWS " ( I.E. IS ESSENTIALLY A POLITICAL DISCUSSION ABOUT ETHICALITY : HOW TO CREATE JUSTICE.]

Νόμοι; is the plural of Nomos -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_(dialogue)

The Laws (Greek: Νόμοι; Latin: De Legibus ) is Plato's last and longest dialogue. The conversation depicted in the work's twelve books begins with the question of who is given the credit for establishing a civilization's laws. Its musings on the ethics of government and law have established it as a classic of political philosophy alongside Plato's more widely read Republic. ... Scholars generally agree that Plato wrote this dialogue as an older man, having failed in his effort in Syracuse on the island of Sicily to guide a tyrant's rule, instead having been thrown in prison. These events are alluded to in the Seventh Letter. The text is noteworthy as Plato's only undisputed dialogue not to feature Socrates.

...

The Laws is similar to and yet in opposition to the Republic. It is similar in that both dialogues concern the making of a city in speech. The city of the Laws is described as "second best", not because the city of the Republic is the best, but because it is the city of gods and their children. The city of the Laws differs in its allowance of private property and private families, and in the very existence of written laws, from the city of the Republic, with its property-system and community of wives for the guardians, and absence of written law. Also, whereas the Republic is a dialogue between Socrates and several young men, the Laws is a discussion among old men, where children are not allowed and there is always a pretense of piety and ritualism.

...

The question asked at the beginning is not "What is law?" as one would expect. That is the question of the apocryphal Platonic dialogue Minos. The dialogue rather proceeds from the question of who it is that receives credit for creating laws.

The questions of The Laws are quite numerous, including:

Divine revelation, divine law and law-giving
The role of intelligence in law-giving
The relations of philosophy, religion, and politics
The role of music, exercise and dance in education
Natural law and natural right

The dialogue uses primarily the Athenian and Spartan ( Lacedaemonian ) law systems as background for pinpointing a choice of laws, which the speakers imagine as a more or less coherent set for the new city they are talking about.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

( trying " Nomos " in Youtube turned up wristwatch adverts - but ... )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKaPz1rEvqs

Law and Justice - Challenge of the Sophists - 5.2 Nomos and Physis in Herodotus

Which from an interesting looking online video course " Law and Justice " -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RudE2XCC484&list=PLTve54sz-eh_bDHo7N3PCNNyhCDHBy9kR

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vE-n_U75OY - Plato's Laws - Brief Introduction

Oh ... here is Gregory B. Sadler again ... with a slightly more sophisticated version of my " uphold all good laws - oppose all bad laws " argument ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtkuvM6983U

The Laws' Arguments (from Socrates) in Plato's Crito - Philosophy Core Concepts

... and not a strictly relevant to the concept of Nomos but an even more sophisticated version of " uphold all good laws - oppose all bad laws " ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dbGPzibXys

Should You Obey the Law? - Philosophy Tube / Open University

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98KWBjIn1YM

Laws .. by PLATO [Full AudioBook] unabridged ... choice : sleep/suicide ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmkfZUFbrgQ

Robert Goldberg – Liberal Education and Plato’s Laws - looks much better !

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP12l9R-qM8

The Nomos of the Earth in the International Law of Jus Publicum Europaeum

http://mgpdf.net/pdf = offered me a free read today $25 otherwise

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Nomos_of_the_Earth_in_the_Internatio.html?id=Qayg5HqaY18C

The Nomos of the Earth in the International Law of the Jus Publicum Europaeum

Carl Schmitt - Telos Press Publishing, 2006

Describes the origin of the Eurocentric global order, which Schmitt dates from the discovery of the New World, discusses its specific character and its contribution to civilization, analyzes the reasons for its decline at the end of the 19th century, and concludes with prospects for a new world order. It is a reasoned, yet passionate argument in defense of the European achievement, not only in creating the first truly global order of international law, but also in limiting war to conflicts among sovereign states, which in effect civilized war.

Google Books offers glimpses into parts of this book - I wish that I had time to transcribe all of this :

CHAPTER 4 : On The Meaning of The Word Nomos

" ... all human nomoi are " nourished " by a single divine nomos. A word like " nomocracy " also makes sense, whereas one can scarcely speak of a " nomarchy." ... "

CONTENTS

Translators Introduction
9
Translators Note and Acknowledgments
35
Law as a Unity of Order and Orientation
42
PreGlobal International Law
50
International Law in the Christian Middle Ages
56
On the Meaning of the Word Nomos
67
LandAppropriation as a Constitutive Process
80
The First Global Lines
86
Dissolution of the Jus Publicum Europaeum 18901918
227
The League of Nations and the Problem
240
Transformation of the Meaning of War
259
The Western Hemisphere
281
Transformation of the Meaning of Recognition
295
War with Modern Means of Destruction
309
An Attempt
324
Nomos Nahme Name
336

The State as the Agency of a New Interstate Eurocentric
140
The Transformation of Medieval Wars Duels or Feuds into
152
Freedom of the Sea
172
Territorial Changes
185
Reference to Possibilities and Elements of International
210
The New Nomos of the Earth
351
Name Index
357
Subject Index
363
Glossary of Foreign Terms
371
Copyright


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nomos-Earth-International-Publicum-Europaeum/dp/0914386298

Nomos of the Earth in the International Law of Jus Publicum Europaeum Hardcover – 1 Jan 2003 - by Carl Schmitt - 3 New from £210.92 ... oh ... ah !

PDF of " Nomos of the Earth in the International Law of Jus Publicum Europaeum " -

http://www.mercaba.org/SANLUIS/Filosofia/autores/Contempor%C3%A1nea/Schmitt/The%20Nomos%20of%20the%20Earth.pdf


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t61M-3jniQ - ThunderboltsProject

Dr. AP David: On The Laws Of Nature | EU2014

Published on Apr 30, 2014

AP David's talk considered the sources of the modern idea of 'Laws of Nature,' or as they are more usually known nowadays, 'physical laws.' He began by articulating the difference between descriptive and prescriptive laws: nature as directly observed versus nature idealized into geometric or other mathematical relationships. This beginning leads to surprisingly large consequences for the way in which new ideas are received by the gatekeepers of mainstream cosmology. It turns out that the revolutionary thinkers of The Enlightenment found in the Laws of Nature an attractive "divine" quality. In particular they saw ideal geometries in planetary and other celestial motions. David will suggest that the willful conflation of descriptive and prescriptive tenets in modern science, especially but not only in mathematical physics, has led to some dire consequences for science itself. He believes that as EU theorists offer their electrical interpretations, it is critically important to understand the religious nature of institutionalized resistance.

Dr. A.P. David is a classical scholar (Hellenist), who has published two academic works including The Dance of the Muses: Choral Theory and Ancient Greek Poetics, Plato's New Measure: The 'Indeterminate Dyad' and self-published several works of fiction and poetry. danceofthemuses.org

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Essential Guide to the Electric Universe: http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/eg-co...

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https://btk.ppke.hu/uploads/articles/8529/file/6-2-06.pdf

THE ETHICS OF NATURAL LAW ACCORDING TO THOMAS AQUINAS

Dalia Marija Stanciene - Institute of Culture, Philosophy and Art - Vilnius

" Thomas Aquinas’ concept of law is an example of the application of Aristotelian teleology to the integral theory of ethics, law and governing. Aquinas’ concept of natural law is called moral law by many scholars. Man is able to anticipate the law of action in relation to eternal law, and such participation in eternal law Thomas calls natural law. The ethics starts from the principle good is to be done and evil is to be avoided. This principle is the basis for the rest of the ethical precepts concerning what is to be done and what is to be avoided. Man has innate general orientations on how to live and behave in this world. Conscience evaluates and judges the motives and moral qualities of actions. This is the main idea of natural law, which is described in the article. ....

... Aquinas’ theory of natural law embraces elements of Platonism, Aristotle, Roman Law, the teaching of Stoics, the Church Fathers (especially Augustine), the feudal tradition, and the political practice of Holy Roman Empire and Italian cities. That theory was employed in the creation of The Higher Law Background of the American Constitution.¹ It helped to transform the traditional, local, customary social system of early feudal society into the centralized policy of the modern world, based on law and logic. ...

... Aquinas applied the teleological method of Aristotle to the analysis of fundamental ethical problems, and this way he escaped enslavement by the authoritative text and abuse of deduction. The famous Treatise on Law (Summa Theologiae, I–II, q. 90-108) is a good example of Aquinas’ reliance on Aristotle’s teleology in the elaboration of integrated theory of ethics, law and government. In these questions, Thomas presents the structure of four laws: (1) Eternal Law (the divine plan of the universe), [ = " THE NOMOS " WHICH I DESCRIBE - FROM WHICH ALL LAWS EVOLVE ] (2) Natural Law (through which man, by the use of his reason, participates in eternal law), (3) Human Law (the application of natural law to particular societies by way of “conclusions” and “determinations”), (4) Divine Law (the divine revelation expressed in the Old and the New Testaments which assists man in understanding the requirements of law and morality). This structure unites the neoPlatonic concepts of hierarchy and participation, some ideas of Roman Law, the feudal belief in the common origin of law and power, and the Stoic belief in the world’s order, rationality and morality. The integrity of this structure rests upon the belief that man is able to understand nature’s aims which correspond to God’s intentions. According to Thomas, natural law is related to the perfecting of “natural inclinations” by means of their subordination to the needs of self-preservation, nutrition, reproduction, family life, learning and adoration, when all this is understood as necessities and possibilities given by God and belonging to the realm of natural law. ...

... Aquinas takes into account that the word lex ‘law’ is a derivative of ligare ‘to bind’, [ WHICH DEFINES 'RE-LEX / RE LAW' AS A DERIVATIVE OF 'RE-LIG-ION' : THE BUSINESS OF CREATING A SHARED UNDERSTANDING AND AN AGREED MORALITY ] and joins this information with the already announced proposition that law is the extrinsic principle of acts, and gets the knowledge that “law is a rule and measure of acts”³ (q. 90, a.1, in c). In composition with the already proven statement that “the rule and measure of human acts is the reason”⁴ (q. 90, a.1, in c), it makes the demonstrative syllogism of the fourth figure (mode a, a, i) which concludes that something that belongs to reason is law. That means that law pertains to human reason. ... Of course, it does not exclude the
emotions and will from participation in law, but law essentially belongs
to reason as to the first principle of acts. Since the first principle in all
matters of action is an end, and the final end of all human actions is
happiness or bliss⁵ (q. 2 a. 7), “Consequently the law must needs regard
principally the relationship to happiness [. . .]. And since one man is a
part of the perfect community, the law must needs regard properly the
relationship to universal happiness”⁶ (q.90, a.2, in c). ...

... After concluding that law belongs to the order of reason and is directed to the common good, we have to learn if any man is competent to make law and promulgate it, and whether the promulgation is essential to a law.
Since law is directly concerned with the common good, which it strives to protect and to direct the activity of the citizens to the latter, “therefore the making of a law belongs either to the whole people or to a public personage who has care of the whole people: since in all other matters the directing of anything to the end concerns him to whom the end belongs”²² (q. 90, a.3, in c). The representatives of the common good choose their own deputies who have the right to make laws, demand compliance and punish for their violation. Thomas underlines that “promulgation is necessary for the law to obtain its force”²³ (q. 90, a.4, in c). Every state’s citizen or member of a community can make propositions concerning lawmaking, but these propositions obtain the force of law if and only if they are included in an officially promulgated law. The promulgated law is binding to every member of a community, and man, while obeying its demands, becomes its own law. After considering each essential aspect of the law separately, Aquinas unites the results in one definition: the law “is nothing else than an ordinance of reason for the common good, made by him who has care of the community, and promulgated”²⁴ (q. 90, a.4, in c).

[ I MUST TAKE NO MORE : THIS PAPER IS A NICE EASY CLEAR READ ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ WHAT I WAS SEARCHING FOR WAS SOMETHING THAT DEMONSTRATES HOW SCIENCE AS AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE WORKINGS OF NATURE CAME OUT OF THIS WORLD VIEW CREATED BY THE MEDIEVAL SCHOLARS AND SO HAS ITS PHILOSOPHICAL ORIGINS IN NATURAL LAW - BUT IT IS TIME NOW TO GO TO BED : THE FOLLOWING IS VERY GOOD - BUT VERY LONG ! ]

http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/rommen-the-natural-law-a-study-in-legal-and-social-history-and-philosophy

[ WITH A BIT OF LUCK I MIGHT GET TO READ THIS LATER - NEXT WEEK ? ]

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sleepless Knight ... I thought that I would look for something shorter and simpler ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WkE1MbfZtPM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r_UfYY7aWKo = why Daf argues that it is not precursor of Science

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wRHBwxC8b8I = the problem with ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oLx8RIwMCjI = one reason Daf hates this stuff !

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FOoffXFpAlU = I do not agree with his definitions of morality and ethicality

My definitions :

Morality : is the Religious debate about " desirable things " which turns out to be about identifying Emotions.

Ethicality : is the Political debate about " desirable things " which turns out to be about identifying Actions.

E.g. Monks and Nuns masturbate like everybody else and it is Ethical for them to do so provided they uphold the Morality of their celibacy by feeling guilty about doing it - or even better regularly practising together in order to conquer their sinful sexualities by striving to not enjoy themselves whilst doing so.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ TEXT ]

Daf : you dispute that The Natural Law led to scientific inquiry ? Listen to this In Our Time about Johannes Kepler ? = http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b085xpzf

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler

" ... Kepler lived in an era when there was no clear distinction between astronomy and astrology, but there was a strong division between astronomy (a branch of mathematics within the liberal arts) and physics (a branch of natural philosophy). Kepler also incorporated religious arguments and reasoning into his work, motivated by the religious conviction and belief that God had created the world according to an intelligible plan that is accessible through the natural light of reason. Kepler described his new astronomy as "celestial physics", as "an excursion into Aristotle's Metaphysics", and as "a supplement to Aristotle's On the Heavens", transforming the ancient tradition of physical cosmology by treating astronomy as part of a universal mathematical physics. ... "
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I talk of " The Nomos " as a term originating in Greek religion as the god of " The Law " they often feel that I am being too hippy-dippy : but this is a short hand for " The Cosmic Law " which obviously governs and uni-ficates The Uni-verse etc and whose boundaries can not be transgressed so there can be no Ultraists taking control of Creation - i.e. Satan is doomed to fail in his aspiration to overthrow The Creator ... It is not just mythically that the " The Divine Law " is a fundamental aspects of The World which explains the universal stories of " Life, Peace, Freedom, Love and Truth " which have emerged as fundamental values within human consciousnesses which have been described in all human cultures since our collective memories began written and unwritten ... If we do not live by such values then our behaviour becomes maladjusted and unsuccessful : we are only able to name them because we value them because we have survived whereas other members of our species who chose " Lies, Hatred, Enslavement, War and Death " became extinct : Evolution is dictated by " The Nomos " - and - whether you choose to believe in " The Creator " as the author of " The Divine Law " or not - everything within The Cosmos is the result of The Nomos ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08kv3y4

The Life Scientific -

Daniel Dennett on the evolution of the human brain
The Life Scientific

Daniel Dennett has never been one to swallow accepted wisdom undigested. As a student he happily sought to undermine the work of his supervisor, Willard Quine. Only one of the most respected figures in 20th century philosophy, a thinker eminent enough to appear on US postage stamps. Later in Oxford, he became frustrated by his fellow philosophers' utter lack of interest in how our brains worked and was delighted when a medical friend introduced him to neurons. And so began an intellectual quest to understand the human mind that spans five decades. He has always believed that our minds are machines. And anyone who disagrees lacks imagination, he says. Reading The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins introduced him to the power of Darwin's theory of evolution. And he has, perhaps, taken Darwinism further than anyone, seeking to explain how we evolved from uncomprehending bacteria to highly intelligent human beings. We know humans and chimpanzees evolved from a common ancestor. And that we share 99 % of our DNA with our closest animal relatives. So why would poetry, ethics, science and literature be somehow cut-off or insulated from our underlying biology? "You've given this much ground. Think about giving a little bit more".

Producer: Anna Buckley.

"The Life Scientific, Daniel Dennett on the evolution of the human brain"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39482345

Is consciousness just an illusion ? - By Anna Buckley

BBC Science Radio Unit - 4 April 2017

" ... Daniel Dennett has always believed our minds are machines. For him the question is not can computers be human? But are humans really that clever ? ... In an interview with BBC Radio 4's The Life Scientific, Dennett says there's nothing special about intuition. "Intuition is simply knowing something without knowing how you got there". ... Dennett blames the philosopher Rene Descartes for permanently polluting our thinking about how we think about the human mind. ... Descartes couldn't imagine how a machine could be capable of thinking, feeling and imagining. Such talents must be God-given. He was writing in the 17th century, when machines were made of levers and pulleys not CPUs and RAM, so perhaps we can forgive him. ..."Do you know the power of a machine made of a trillion moving parts?", he asks. ... "We're not just are robots", he says. "We're robots, made of robots, made of robots". ... Our brain cells are robots that respond to chemical signals. The motor proteins they create are robots. And so it goes on. ...

... Consciousness is real. Of course it is. We experience it every day. But for Daniel Dennett, consciousness is no more real than the screen on your laptop or your phone. ... The geeks who make electronic devices call what we see on our screens the "user illusion". It's a bit patronising, perhaps, but they've got a point. ... Pressing icons on our phones makes us feel in control. We feel in charge of the hardware inside. But what we do with our fingers on our phones is a rather pathetic contribution to the sum total of phone activity. And, of course, it tells us absolutely nothing about how they work. ... Human consciousness is the same, says Dennett. "It's the brain's 'user illusion' of itself," he says. ... Our brains, like our bodies, have evolved over hundreds of millions of years. They are the result of millions and millions of years of haphazard trial and error evolutionary experiments.
From an evolutionary perspective, our ability to think is no different from our ability to digest, says Dennett. ...

... We evolved from uncomprehending bacteria. Our minds, with all their remarkable talents, are the result of endless biological experiments. ... Our genius is not God-given. It's the result of millions of years of trial and error. ... When a bacteria moves towards a food source, scientists don't praise the bacteria for being clever. That would be highly unscientific. But when scientists describe thinking as a biological activity, they risk ridicule or outrage (depending on the company they keep).
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montesqiue's " The Spirit of The Law " starts with a Nomostic argument -

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wtQFOgOmPto
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger Scruton abusing the idea of Natural Law and " The Religion of Human Rights " -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b092gkks

The Religion of Rights - A Point of View

"European society", says Sir Roger Scruton, "is rapidly jettisoning its Christian heritage and has found nothing to put in its place save the religion of human rights".

But, he argues, this new "religion" delivers one-sided solutions since rights favour the person who can claim them - whatever the moral reasons for opposing them.

He says Europe needs to rediscover its Christian roots.
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