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Savita Died For Ireland
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Dan Demagogue Reply with quote

The Big Questions held a debate on the Catholic Church and population explosion. This was in response to a recent Vatican conference on the growth of the world's population. It had been hosted by the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.

Children now alive might live to see the extinction of half the species now existing on the planet. Human beings were intruding more and more into the habitat of large wild animals. Yet so many people are malnourished or starving.

We were destroying our own resources. The forests can't survive wihout animals.

The Big Questions debate was about whether the Catholic Church should accept contraception in the interests of the planet. As it was, we would be heading for the Sixth Great Extinction.

Karin Kuhlmann said we were taking a big gamble. After some talk on ecology in general, she noted how many people are not using contraception because they've been told it's wrong.

They had been brought up to believe it was for God to decide the number of children they could have.They felt conflicted.

They wanted to limit their family size. But they weren't getting any support from their priests or the Church.

Nicky Campbell put it to Dan Hitchens from the Catholic Herald that we were driving our closest cousins to extinction for biscuits and palm oil. Great apes were sentient beings with inner lives.

Dan professed to agree but then said that it was not over population but over consumption that was the problem. He had a spiel about over consumption, that may have been accurate in itself but was
a distraction from the main issue.

He said how awful it was that people in rich countries complained about poor people in Bangladesh having too many children. It was not these poor people who were the greedy consumers.

He claimed that academics in the 70s who had been squealing about overpopulation now admitted they were wrong. He even claimed that there was a danger of underpopulation. The more people there are the better it is. The more imagination and ideas there will be.

John Gibbons from Ireland politely agreed with him on consumption. But he said the growth of population could not be extracted from the problem. The world population was now increasing at a rate higher than the total population of the UK every year. It was more like the population of Germany.

There are about 80, 000 000 unintended pregnancies each year. We could help other people to make plans about reproduction in line with their own wishes.

We should encourage women and girls to delay their first pregnancies, and to stay in education. Otherwise there would be no natural world when his children grew up.

We had no idea what we were doing to other species. Not only apes but elephants were intelligent creatures with rich inner lives. They were led by matriarchs up to 60 years old.

Caspar Hewett said, ''I don't buy any of that.'' He denied that other animals have sentience comparable to human intelligence.

John Gibbons accused him of thinking only we have a right to be here. Caspar said he didn't think anyone had a right to be here.

Nicky Campbell looked at Dan Hitchens as he said the Church was run by men who had never 'known' a woman, telling women to have lots of children.

''Not at all!''. said Dan, ''The Church is not just bishops.'' He had a long bragging fest on how the Church was the biggest charitable institution in the world. It made peace. It did so much good.

The Bishop of Ghana had been sad that just because the Church would not promote contraception and abortion, some NGOs did not want their help.

But the Church was so great. It brokered peace talks between warring nations.

John Gibbons put in that the Phillippines, the only Catholic country in Asia had an astronomical birth rate but also an astronomical rate of illegal abortions. It was not too good for women there.

Dan said that NGOs had shelves groaning under the weight of condoms. All they were interested in was condoms. You couldn't get polio vaccines or penicillin. No, these people were more interested in peddling a political ideology [He meant contraception] than giving women what they needed. What was needed was decent maternal care.

He said that the Philippine Medical Association did not agree that contraception was a good thing. Nicky Campbell asked him who ran it, trying to get him to admit it was a Catholic body.

Dan just trilled with laughter, and said it was presumably run by doctors.He said the Philippines did not want the introduction of abortion and contraception. This was a foreign ideology.

It was interesting that he did not see Catholicism as a foreign ideology. John Gibbons said that it was very interesting to hear what he had to say about introducing foreign ideology.

For the first seventy years after independence, Ireland had been run effectively as a Roman Catholic state. The Church had a tender interest in the welfare of babies up to the moment of their birth. Then they immediately lost interest. He was sorry to hear that the Philippines were repeating Ireland's mistake.

Dan is prepared to destroy the planet in the name of a flawed ideology. But he can't even see that that is what it is. For him it is just objective truth.

Using contraceptives is no more an idealogical position than using toothpaste. It is just an obvious thing to do.

Dan said in all seriousness that women of reproductive age do not need contraception, and they could never need it. He really believes that.

It is amazing what can happen if you give a priest a child for seven years. And I'm not just alluding to physical child abuse.


Last edited by marianneh on Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:55 am; edited 4 times in total
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:36 pm    Post subject: nasty nuns Reply with quote

Was John Gibbons right in saying that the Catholic Church lost interest in the welfare of babies the moment they were born? He definitely was.

A commission has been investigating Church run Mother and Baby homes for unmarried mothers in Ireland. The commisssioners uncovered a grisly secret in County Galway, the very place where Savita was martyred.


Last week, in 17 out of 20 underground chambers under the Bon Secours Mother and Baby Home, they found 'several remains' of babies from 35 gestational weeks to 2 or 3 years old.They are trying to find out who disposed of the remains in this way.

The Irish government had heard rumours of a mass grave. Now they have confirmation. The children's affairs minister, Katharine Zappone said the news was 'not unexpected but it was very sad and disturbing.'

It is estimated that other Bon Secours homes may have 'angels' plots' where 3,200 babies are buried. This follows the discovery in 2014 of 800 babies' bodies in a septic tank at a convent run home in Tuam.

The Bon Secours home in Galway was in business between 1925 and 1961. In the 30s and 40s, the mortality rate for babies born at the home ran between 30 and 50%. This was due to the harsh conditions of life imposed by the nuns.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: lisheen Reply with quote

According to Jude Law, Ireland had lisheens, burial plots for unbaptised babies, clearly marked on maps. Priests often refused to give the last rites to illegitimate babies.

One of the most prevalent causes of death for babies in convent run places was something called 'green diarrhoea.' Then, all sorts of epidemic diseases swept the homes. The nuns let the babies lie in their own filth all the time and become infected. They didn't care.

The babies were often put two to a cot. The idea was that they bore the sins of their parents. It would be rather a good thing if they died as in heaven they would be cleansed of the sin of bastardy.

The nuns were worse than indifferent to whether they lived or died. They were at least slightly death biased. The bodies of the dead babies were sometimes used for dissection by medical students. Perhaps the nuns were paid for providing them.

Other babies were buried in cess pits. The young mothers were ordered not to grieve for the babies. Death was the best thing that could have happened to them. This was a price Ireland was prepared to pay for the illusion of moral superiority.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: bash the bishop Reply with quote

Richard Dawkins calls Roman Catholicism 'the world's second most evil religion.' I agree.

But I think he's too eager to let the Church of England off the hook. He's quite fond of it.He's like the mother mentioned in Kate Fox's anthropological study of the English. She thought the C of E was a default position for those who didn't really have a religion.

Dawkins thinks the C of E has immunised people against fanaticism. Maybe sometimes it does.

But I've met extremely nasty and fanatical Anglicans. A charismatic Anglican lawyer John Smyth used to run Christian camps for boys. In his life time, he was questioned over his involvement in the death of a Zimbabwean boy whose body was found at the bottom of a swimming pool.

He said it was a tragic accident. This was accepted.

Now we have heard that he told boys that they had to 'bleed for Jesus.' He had a collection of canes in a shed where he would ritually lay into naked boys for the offences against purity of masturbation, looking at pornography or having lustful thoughts.

He was particularly exercised about masturbation. I don't know if hypocrisy is the word I'm looking for to describe him. It was obviously all about sex. He was getting sexual gratification out of his assaults on impurity, but maybe he didn't know that.

Andrew Watson who is now the Bishop of Guildford has confirmed to Channel Four that it all happened. He had been on the receiving end himself.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: kerala Reply with quote

I'm asking myself if Kerala in India has a shortage of boys. For a Catholic priest Father Robin aka Matthew Vadakkancheril has raped a 15 year old girl.

Perhaps he did not realise the added danger of discovery in this new departure. Girls can become pregnant.

First he persuaded the girl's father to accept responsibility. The father agreed in order to uphold the honour of the Catholic Church. But after he found out what a long stretch he was facing, he changed his mind and dobbed the priest in.

Meanwhile the girl gave birth in hospital, and later found out that the baby had been taken to an orphanage without her knowledge or consent.

The Catholic Church has blamed 'consumerism' and also the temptations of the flesh.

A Catholic paper has also blamed the victim. An editorial asked, 'My child, don't you know what a priest is? He is human. He can be temporarily overcome by temptation.

'Why didn't you prevent him and correct him?'

Power without resonsibility is the priest's privilege. Isn't that the old saying?

This is my advice to practising Roman Catholics. Leave the Church immediately,and don't let your children go anywhere near a Catholic priest.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject: cunningham Reply with quote

Bishop Robert Cunningham of Syracuse, New York deposed in a child abuse case that when a boy is abused by a Roman Catholic priest, the boy is partly 'culpable.' After all seven is the age of reason.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:46 pm    Post subject: confession Reply with quote

On 'The Big Questions', the subject of discussion was 'Should the Secrecy of the Confessional be Sacrosanct?' Dr Peter Petkoff was not in favour of breaking the seal of the confessional when the sin confesed was paedophilia.

In a detached, philosophical way, he noted the existence of a 'particular moral paradigm' which might make ratting on a paedophile priest look excusable. He called it utilitarianism.

But it was a complex moral issue. ''Isn't the morality pretty simple?'' asked Nicky Campbell. Peter Petkoff said that between gentlemen a confidence was sacred.

Nicky Campbell asked what if a priest confessed to another priest that he was abusing children and intended to continue doing it. What should the second priest do?

Peter said he would have to make a choice between adhering to a very specific part of canon law and saving a child.

Rabbi Jonathan Romain was appalled that anyone thought there was a choice to be made. Of course you should dob him in.

Religious rules are man made. They can be changed. They should be changed.

They couldn't stand in the way of human needs. If someone came to him in his capacity as a rabbi and said he was not only a paedophile but intended to continue abusing children, he would say, ''You'll have to go to the police and turn yourself in. If you like, I'll go with you. If you don't do it, I'll go to the police myself.'' Otherwise, he could not look the child's mother in the face.

Petkoff said that was personal advice. The sanctity of the confessional was central to Christian identity, among both Catholics and the Orthodox.

The Canon Reverend Dr Chris Sugden said that this was something that the Church had held discussions about a few years ago. It was important that a paedophile could talk to someone in complete confidence. Otherwise who was there with whom he could discuss his paedophilia? No one!

This was the result of the discussions? Mark my words, don't let your child go anywhere near a Catholic priest!


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: not just an icon Reply with quote

www.independent.ie/irish-news-call-for-dublin-street-to-be-named-after-savita-halappanavar-to-honour-her-memory-35178509.html
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Paul Butto Reply with quote

Paul Butto has written to the Western Mail on behalf of SPUC to disagree with the statement that morning after pills have prevented a tremendous amount of unplanned pregnancies in teenagers.

''Have they really?'' he asked sarcastically. According to him the MAP does not prevent pregnancies but destroys them. It is an abortifacient.

For him, an egg becomes a person from the second it is fertilised by a sacred sperm, even while it is still in a fallopian tube or wherever conception occurs.The MAP makes the womb too inhospitable for the fertilised egg to stick to the wall. It slides off and is shed.

To him, this is the tragic death of a human being. To consider what an impractical stance this is, just think of ectopic pregnancies, where an embryo starts growing in the fallopian tube instead of in the womb.

If left untreated, the tube will explode and probably kill the woman it is inside. There's no way on earth that that embryo is ever going to be a fully developed baby, ready to be born.

Even when abortion was illegal, doctors intervened to cure ectopic pregnancies. It would be interesting to know what the law is in Ireland on this subject.

Butto is upset even though if you take a MAP and it works, you will never know if your egg had been fertilised in the first place. No one will. It is impossible to find out.

For all Butto knows, none of the MAPs taken last year were necessary. Perhaps conception had never occurred in the first place, no not once.

Yet he's not upset about the bodies of real babies buried in Tuam. The tender concern for a baby's welfare switches off as soon as it is born. As for concern for the baby's mother - don't make me laugh!

Some nice people wanted to name a Dublin street after Savita last November. It doesn't look as if they succeeded. The holy ones said it would not be 'possible' to name a street after her.

I added a link to the story in the post above this one because it has pictures of Savita before she became a subhuman nothing in a theological context, and before she became an icon.

We see her on a settee laughing with her husband Praveen, maybe while celebrating Divali. We see her looking sharp, intelligent and attractive. We can also see her grieving parents with her picture.

Before Savita was murdered by the Church and the State, she wasn't a bone of contention. She was a person.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: the blood of savita Reply with quote

About twelve women sneak out of the Republic of Ireland every day to have legal abortions either in the UK or another European country such as the Netherlands.

This is a rough estimate as secrecy is of the essence. They don't usually draw attention to themselves.

But two women discussed their journey to seek abortions in a tweet dialogue. This was a bit foolhardy. Normally women who suffer post abortion blood loss after returning to Ireland dare not go to A&E lest they give themselves away.

The women were lucky. If anyone drew the attention of the gardai to their tweets, the police couldn't be arsed to do anything. The women suffered nothing worse than criticism online.

They asked why they should be silent.'Silence breaks twelve hearts a day. Silence has the blood of Savita on its hands.'

Savita's mother accused Ireland of murdering her only daughter. She made a fair point, but not all of Ireland was to blame, only the state and a number of individual doctors and nurses.

The Vatican shared the responsibility. Abortion had been legal in India since 1971. Indians could not understand what justification there could be for such behaviour. For them, it was not even an argument about a woman's right to choose.

It was a cruel and inexplicable act of premeditated homicide with no lawful excuse. When informed that the doctors' conduct was legal in Ireland, Savita's father responded that Irish law needed to be changed.

This is true of course. Yet Ireland was not the only western country to persecute a Hindu woman for supposedly seeking an abortion in recent years. There was also the strange case of the State of Indiana versus Purvi Patel.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:44 pm    Post subject: the strange case of Purvi Patel Reply with quote

The 21 year old student in Northern Ireland convicted of taking an abortion pill after her house mates dobbed her in, was given a suspended sentence. People were shocked even at that.

But that was nothing compared to what happened to Purvi Patel in Indiana under the governorship of Mike Pence. I think it was in 2014 that Purvi Patel who lived at home with observant Hindu parents appeared at an A&E unit with severe uterine bleeding.

At first she denied it was pregnancy related. Later she said she had had a stillbirth. A baby's body was recovered.

In 2015, in what Catherine Mayer found a 'Kafkaesque' development, Purvi was convicted of taking an abortion pill ordered online although there was no chemical evidence that she had taken one, and there was no evidence from her online account that she had ordered one.

She was sentenced to thirty years in prison for foeticide and for neglect of a newborn, with ten years suspended. But she could only possibly have committed one not both.

The defence argued that the baby had indeed been stillborn. The prosecution argued that it had been born alive, using a long discredited test in an attempt to prove it.

In 2016 a judge ordered Purvi's immediate release. Her treatment was without precedent. The law against foeticide in Indiana was intended to apply to people who punched a pregnant woman in the abdomen or did something comparable.

A pregnant woman could not be guilty of foeticide within the terms of the act as abortion was legal in Indiana. It was also of course legal under the constitution following the case of Roe versus Wade.

The conviction for child neglect was allowed to stand which seems unfair as there was no proof that the baby had been born alive.It is true that Purvi's parents belonged to a religious tradition that disapproved of non marital births.

She may have given birth in secret to a live child and had concerns inconsistent with its welfare because she was terrified of her parents' reaction. Leniency would be appropriate as it is terrifying and extremely painful to give birth in secret without the help of a midwife. Anyone might go a bit mad in the circumstances.

In any case it has not been established that the baby was born alive. In the absence of a midwife to guide it out, it would not be surprising that it came to grief. Or it may have been dead for some time.

Furthermore, if the pregnancy was sufficiently advanced that the rival experts were referring to a stillbirth as opposed to a miscarriage, does it make sense to accuse the mother of taking an abortion pill?

When Donald Trump said there must be some punishment for procuring an abortion,he needn't have worried. The punishment will be forthcoming even when there is no proof of abortion.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: tranexamic Reply with quote

A cheap drug, tranexamic acid, can stop women dying of massive blood loss in the first moments after birth. This should make pregnancy much safer.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: coalition of crackpots Reply with quote

Theresa May is clinging grimly on to power by making an uneasy alliance with the DUP. This could be disastrous. The role of the UK government in the peace process is to be the apparently impartial honest broker between unionists and republicans - or Catholics and Protestants if you prefer.

To have a marriage of convenience with one side will upset the delicate balance of power. And this is all to bring about Brexit when Northern Ireland as a whole voted to remain, and has a land border with the Republic which actually has the Euro! This is a knot too difficult for the lupine vicar's daughter to untie.

A woman I spoke to, today was extremely unhappy about the situation. She remarked that Arlene Foster had a 'hard' face. She has a 'no surrender' rhetorical style which is extremely unappealing.

The party was founded by Ian Paisley who denied evolution up to his death, and this party is opposed to gay marriage.

The woman I spoke to today was especially antipathetic to the DUP as they oppose abortion. It's curious that they are so dogged in their disdain for Catholics but agree with them about so much. Unlike Pope Pius xi, they would have graciously allowed Savita to live.

They do make exceptions when a woman's life is at risk. I'm relieved to hear it.

But taken as a whole, in today's world, they are so out of sync with the mainstream that this arrangement has been called 'a coalition of crackpots.' How can the Conservatives negotiate with people to whom 'compromise' is a swear word?

Theresa May has had to sacrifice her two core advisers today, and it may be only a matter of weeks or months before the demon headmistress is toppled.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: dup Reply with quote

It seems to me that if Theresa May has a coalition with the DUP, it will be a breach of the Good Friday Agreement. But she is charging ahead.

The one good thing is that this has drawn attention to the law on abortion in Northern Ireland. Sarah Ewart was pregnant with a foetus that could never be born alive. A doctor she spoke to, refused to remove it surgically, saying, ''I'm not going to prison for you!'', or words to that effect.

The Appeal Court in Belfast has now ruled that the almost total ban on abortion in Northern Ireland is a human rights abuse. Not only should abortion be available when a foetus will never be able to live outside the womb. Abortion should be available in cases of rape and incest also.
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Moritz



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ulster Unionism is the Politix of Fear. Marianne has proven that it is logical to fear the Power of the Roman Church.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: clarify Reply with quote

Hi Moritz, it's good to see you back. I haven't changed my mind about the danger of the Catholic Church. But the DUP are the heirs of John Knox with the misogyny and pettiness you would expect.

These are the kind of people who clamp swings in children's playgrounds on Saturday nights to prevent the Sabbath being profaned on Sundays. You can oppose Catholicism without lying awake at night worrying that someone somewhere may be having fun.

You know as well as I do that the peace in Ulster is fragile. You don't want the Troubles to break out again, do you? Do you really want the DUP to keep the Tories in power? Wouldn't you rather give Jeremy Corbyn a chance?

It may sound like casuistry, but to a degree, I make a bit of a distinction between the Catholic hierarchy and their awful dogmas, and the ethnic group called Catholics who have been historically oppressed in Ulster.

I must remind you that Bernadette Devlin supports a woman's right to abortion on demand with no restrictions whatsoever. She is not a believing Catholic. The Catholic label is misleading here.

I am in no way condoning the cruelty and hypocrisy of the provisional IRA and its splinter groups. But we don't want the DUP's policies on women and gays to be introduced in the mainland UK. I find it hard to believe you whole heartedly support this group. Please explain, cariad.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: crackpots Reply with quote

Mark Steel would have it that the DUP are even less tolerant of abortion than Catholics. For they don't think it can be confessed and absolved as Catholics do.

I don't know about that. Abortion was once something for which you could be excommunicated from the Catholic Church. Pope Francis appears to have backtracked slightly.

The talks between the DUP and the Conservative government have broken down, apparently because the DUP have demanded a massive infusion of cash into Northern Ireland.

The Daily Mirror said that even the 'crackpots' can't do business with Theresa May.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: farron Reply with quote

Tim Farron has had to step down as leader of the Liberal Democrats as his evangelical beliefs compromised his championing of liberal values. He appeared to be personally conflicted about whether he should support abortion rights and gay rights.

But in his heart of hearts he thinks abortion is always wrong at any stage, and he has sometimes voted against gay rights. He may have had an inner struggle which one can sympathise with. But it's hard to symathise with his view that he is being treated in a intolerant and illiberal way. His own intolerance may have made him dangerous had he gained power.
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dai



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is ironic that he is leader of the Liberal Democrats that he would try to prevent consenting adult relationships - but it is arguably in line with Liberalism that the foetus is not consenting to either come into existence or to be killed. In Ancient Rome the " pater familias " effectively owned the family and as I understand it could kill his children with impunity and this was a commonplace in most ancient societies where defective or superfluous offspring could be destroyed in often a casual way but sometimes with pomp and ceremony as a public and often a religious rite. In modern Wales we send our children to school instead which is often far crueller : we have laws to ensure that children are destroyed in this way because we believe that it is in The Public Interest and in the ancient conception of De Re Publica it was considered to be as correct a thing to do to kill those who were potentially merely going to be unwanted dependents upon welfare benefits.

As we can see from this recent innovation in welfare legislation The Demockerats have decided to only feed two children in each family dependant upon welfare benefits - which is the logical extension of the abortion laws because the main reason for abortion is not that the foetus is not medically viable but that the family which conceived it is not economically viable. As when in Ancient Rome parents wept as they left their babies at the roadside in the hope that somebody wealthy would pick them up and raise them as slaves yet knew that they would most likely die of exposure and end up in the ditch - so in Modern Wales if their parents to do not volunteer to kill them their babies are raised as slaves unless they have the means to live not dependent upon welfare benefits and keep them out of The Schools in The State.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:50 pm    Post subject: bribe Reply with quote

People I spoke to today are disgusted at the terms on which Theresa May has finally done a deal with Arlene Foster and the DUP. It is blatant biribery and corruption. She is giving them a billion pounds to shore up her minority government.

Scotland and Wales want the same cash handouts. Why should they be left out? Sinn Fein is not happy. Will we see a return to the depressing days of the 70s in Northern Ireland?

How irresponsible can you get? We all know peace is balanced on a knife edge.
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