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Savita Died For Ireland
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dai



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I find it puzzling that a party which claims to be Republican is - or was - prepared to undermine The Rule of Law in a totally immoral and unethical ways talks of it being a high minded principle to not take its seats in Westminster : if Sinn Fein are willing to wage war on behalf of The People in Ireland why are they not willing to eat shit for them ? I am sure that they could find a way to take up their seats without abasing themselves and with the margin between the government and the opposition so small they could do some real good for the whole of Ireland : they could become statesmen instead of merely politicians.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: nose Reply with quote

I think they are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Perhaps this will change.
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dai



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last year you got lost or something ? Would you care to think about contributing an idea for Y Dydd Rhydd 2017 ?

http://repwblic.informe.com/y-dydd-rhydd-2017-gorff-14-july-bastille-day-dt1355.html
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:02 am    Post subject: creasy Reply with quote

I'm not sure yet if I'll be double booked for 14 July. We can discuss this nearer the time.

To return to the main theme, the DUP has come to an agreement with Theresa May. She is bribing them to keep her in power with public money. So there is a magic money tree after all!

We thought the DUP was going to impose its ideas about gays and abortion on us. But so far, this has not happened.

Stella Creasy has brought an amendment to the queen's speech which will make women who come from Northern Ireland to Brtain for an abortion, eligible to be treated on the NHS.

I must be very naive, but I didn't know they weren't already entitled to free treatment at the point of delivery. I knew Manxwomen had to pay, but the Isle of Man is not in the UK, and Northern Ireland is.

Northern Irish women had had to pay perhaps £1400 for an abortion in Britain. When you consider that working class girls are most likely to have unplanned pregnancies as teenagers, you can see that this put a legal abortion out of reach of those in the greatest need.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject: how the sixtis swung Reply with quote

When my partner was at university, he and the other undergraduates were told that they would have to be in their halls of residence by a certain hour of the night. The staff were in loco parentis.

For in those days, you came of age not at 18 but 21. You can understand why there were so many early marriages. It was the only thing that could emancipate you from your parents' guardianship if you were under 21.

David Steel's abortion act was passed in 1967. I think it was in 1968 that the principal of Aberystwyth University was given some information that disturbed him. One of the female undergraduates who was under 21, had had one of these new fangled legal abortions, and this had been arranged by a doctor at the student health centre.

The principal was a 'Prussian officer type.' He said he had to know who the student was. He was in loco parentis. It's not clear what he had in mind to do about the situation. Expulsion or a pi-jaw come to mind.

He ordered the doctor to give him the name of the student. The doctor refused. He said he had to respect patient confidentiality.

But he was afraid that he might later succumb to pressure. To prevent any possibility of the principal finding out the student's identity, he burnt the relevant documents on a bonfire in his back garden.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: query Reply with quote

Boots has had to clean up its act to avoid a boycott. This high street chemists was overcharging for the morning after pill. The chain has apologised, and agreed to cut the price. Although the morning after pill is available free on prescription, women may need it urgently, and not have time to see a doctor. They may even feel belttled by having to ask a doctor for it.

This morning, the subject was discussed on 'Sunday Morning Live.' A spokesman from SPUC, the anti abortion pressure group, said that the morning after pill often caused abortions by preventing a fertilised egg from implanting on the womb wall. He also said that it increased the risk of ectopic pregnancy.

Although I don't agree with his point of view, I had heard that the mechanism of the morning after pill was as he said, and I have stated this as a fact earlier in this thread. The claim about ectopic pregnancy also rang a bell.

A woman from a pregnancy advisory provider retorted smartly that the morning after pill reduced the rate of ectopic pregnancies by reducing the number of pregnancies altogether. She also said he was wrong about how this medication works. It actually prevents pregnancy by delaying ovulation.

If this is really so, it may be that what is now called the morning after pill works differently from the medication that was so called when I was an irresponsible young flibbertigibbert.

Boots began by taking a pompous line. It did not want to 'incentivise' irresponsible use. It later apologised for its inappropriate use of words - and it did not mean the tortured English. Incentivise? What's wrong with 'encourage'?

It is never irresponsible to take the morning after pill. It often follows a bit of irresponsible behaviour such as unprotected sex or an unplanned one night stand. But it is a form of belated responsibilty. It is putting things right after the event.

Don't be put off. If you've been sowing your wild oats and you're now praying for a crop failure, the best thing you can do is get hold of the morning after pill in good time.

If you don't want a miserable unplanned child or to face the chill decision about whether to abort, have a MAP. It's painless and misery free. Don't listen to the fanatics and the nutters. It's they who are the irresponsible and deceitful peddlars of human misery.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someday I will tell you a story about the misery of the morning after pill ... has it ever occurred to you to consider how whilst women have acquired more control over whether or not they want to have babies - and in theory they always had such control if they were not so susceptible to chocolates, flowers, false promises, guilt, societal pressure and rape - men have acquired even less control over whether or not they want to have babies ... with women queuing up on the dark net to clandestinely buy vials of George Cluny's sperm what chance do ordinary blokes like me have ? ... One thing that can be said for old fashioned Christian marriages is that however bad they were to live within you knew that nobody could get divorced so if you cared to get married you were likely to be able to find somebody else as desperate as yourself to be mutually abused with ... (dai)

http://whatsbloggingmyview.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/something-that-made-me-laugh-today.html

( the only cartoon that I could find from " Families and How to Survive Them." )
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: P Reply with quote

Do you mean the MAP causes physical misery? It may do so sometimes. Some early forms of the contraceptive pill could cause depression and incidentally a distaste for sex. Some joked that that was how it worked.

I do know an academic whose career could have been derailed by early sexual experimentation, but wasn't in the event. At 17, she had been working hard at school and also living it up in every possible way for two years.

She had to have a MAP after being a bit silly. But it didn't work. Doctors strongly advised her to have an abortion. Her womb had been temporarily poisoned, and God alone knew what would be wrong with the embryo.

She agreed immediately. She would never have considered having a child at that age anyway.

Do you really think that it might be quite good for men if we had poor contraception, and they were forced into shotgun marriages? Do you think the loneliness and misery of an unhappy marriage is more tolerable than the more straightforward misery of being alone?


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:59 pm    Post subject: the rabbi and the map Reply with quote

It must be difficult for men that the main decisions on reproduction are out of their hands. I do sympathise but I can't empathise as it's not a position I've ever been in.

Sometimes men are consulted, even in religions less oppressive of women's reproductive lives than Catholicism. As a young man, Rabbi Jonathan Romain was shocked to be told that his interlocutor had had a night of passion with a passing fancy on a High Holiday. It may have been Yom Kippur.

Jonathan Romain was so scandalised that it hurt. It was a terrible dereliction to experience coitus with your own wife on this holiest of days. To do it with a woman you were not even married to, was sin squared or possibly cubed.

He began to harangue the man agitatedly. How could he have done such a thing? The rabbi trusted that at the very least, he had been careful. He hoped there was no risk of pregnancy.

The man said that it was a possibility. He had not used a condom for that would be a sin. Although Judaism does permit contraception, condoms are treife for some arcane reason.

The rabbi replied that as he had not been concerned about committing the other sins, he couldn't see why he was bothered about using a condom. Rabbi Jonathan then said firmly that he must urge the woman to have a morning after pill.

The man demurred. He thought that would be a sin too.

The rabbi couldn't understand his scale of priorities. He tried to convince him that it was the only sensible course in this case. He never saw the person again, but hopes and believes he took his advice.


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dai



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile

I was always very conscientious about contraception so sex was rarely without a condom and only by my partner's choice. There was only one occasion on which my partner in her excitement drew me into her without a condom and then blamed me the following day when I was responsible and checked that she indeed had wanted to do that. There was a very bitter row that it was my fault and the pill was taken - it could not be otherwise given our circumstances - but she was indifferent or rather hostile to my mournful feelings that this was the one occasion on which I might have been a father.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: always look on the bright side. Reply with quote

I hope I'm not getting like Pollyanna here but there is a bright side. It would have been much more a cause of mourning if you absolutely know that conception has occurred - and circumstances make it impossible to have a child anyway.

You don't know if it happened or not. Cheer up!

I can't remember how many times I've had a MAP which shows just what an incorrigible dork my young self was. I won't elaborate about my other close brushes with maternity before it happened for real. It would be invading someone else's privacy, and I believe it is well known to you if you have a long memory.

It seems to me that these things can be traumatic and depressing, but it's so long ago now, that I've assimilated these experiences. I'm no longer suffering. It's like ancient history.

Furthermore, even as a first year undergraduate, I was a late developer emotionally, more like an adolescent. I found it hard to cope with making difficult adult decisions. I am sure that people who are more sensible and 'grounded', would have a practical, businesslike approach. We can't assume everyone is as hypersensitive as ourselves, and so we are ill equipped to give advice.


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dai



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That mourning over a possible child took place when I was 50 and she 48 and although you might think it preposterous for me to conceive that she might conceive it was her that threw the tantrum - partly it seems because I expressed doubt that she could still conceive at that age ... It is not thaat there was a high probability that I had fathered my one and only child only to see s/he destroyed ... What hurt was her total self-preoccupation in her rage at me - as if I had somehow violated her sacred role as mother - which disregarded how emotional this might be for me i.e. as if my role in bed was sacrificing my semen to her greater glory etc. ... This was very much connected with women using their sexuality and fertility and their emotional licence in our society to exercise control over men : its often cited by Feminists that contraception is liberating but I do not think that it is properly used to try to enslave men without the consequences of pregnancy or emotional engagement ...

It strikes me now a days that contraception has reduced not increased The Liberty in Women because not only does it commodify female sexuality enabling women to use it as a thing separate from themselves either in a straight financial exchange or by barter or bribery in various relationships but ... it leaves women who treat it this way - and their sisters in society - with a reduced claim to interact with men on any other basis i.e. it undermines the objectives of Feminist Republicanism which argues that motherhood is the bedrock of society and sole source of moral and ethical values since the mother-baby in womb relationship is the very model of the consenting relationships which is the object of The Rule of Law and the embodiement of The Natural Law which Republicans aspire to model in our human legal systems : it is about Life whether you are Maslow or Aquinas or any other writer for thousands of years - and only women can give Life to another whilst our role as men in The Republic in Life is to hang around, try not to get under your feet, provide semen when politely asked for it ( we are still allowed to refuse but of course we are either too polite or too scared not to ) and provide the means for The Mothers in The Republic to go about the business of creating new citizens for Y Repwblic

" Savita died for Ireland " was the seed of this thread - but I wonder if that image of poverty stricken Irish families unrestricted in growth because contraception is banned is true - or ever was so true ... Obviously Ireland has gone through one demographic crisis after another and emigration was a permanent feature of 19c life - in contrast to Wales which was the only country in Europe in the 19c whose population not only stayed put but actually absorbed immigrants and taught them Welsh - in contrast to England which despite immigrants still exported more emigrants in the 19c ... But beginning with The Miners' Strike in 1926 the tide of emigration out of Wales as the economic collapse of our society - engineered in The City in London - resulted in the collapse of the Welsh language because even those who used it began to urge their children to use English in order to be ready to emigrate - as had happened in 19c Ireland....

... And from the end The Miners' Strike in 1985 what we have witnessed in Wales is what happened in Ireland from the end of The Famines in Ireland in the 1840s : offspring emigrate leaving elderly parents behind which seems fine for a while until the demographic crisis hits thirty years later i.e. the absence of a generation is bearable economically - especially if they send money home to their parents or siblings - but if that generation remain absent and do not return to support their family in non-financial ways then elderly people are left dependent upon paying non-family members to care for them - ultimately The State either pays for this care or there is no care for them. ... What The Supporters of The United Kingdom have done over the past thirty years is to cause such demographic crises through large swathes of working class communities in Wales, England and Scotland ...

... The Supporters of The United Kingdom either anticipated this and planned for it or more likely bungled it and their remedy for the demographic crisis - which they created through sweeping millions of families into poverty such as they either chose not to have children or even worse they left their parents and either had children elsewhere or worst of all had no children - is immigration ... So working class people have found themselves with their wages undermined to the point that they can not afford to have children by immigrants who are basically children born elsewhere but whose upbringing The Aristocracy who own The United Kingdom did not have to pay for : in a very real sense The Supporters of The United Kingdom are using immigrant labour to finance the destruction of The Families in Wales - and England - and Scotland - and Northern Ireland - and indeed The Irish Republic too ...

... You might think that Feminist Republicans would be on the front line in entrenched positions defending The Family ...
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject: da Reply with quote

I should think fertility is declining at 48, but for those who are not yet menopausal, conception remains a possibility. Of coure there can be a negative side to having contraception on tap.

For instance, during the sexual revolution, it deprived women of a polite and non abrasive way to decline a bonk. ''What are you worried about? You're on the pill?'', was the obvious rejoinder. That you just didn't feel like it was not considered a good reason to refuse.

Ireland's biggest export was people from the time of the famine. So maybe, even without conscious thought, one motive in banning contraception, never mind abortion, was to make up for the population drainage, even to replace those ghost individuals who would have been there had not their potential ancestors perished in the famine.

Make no mistake. The famine was a louring cloud for most of the twentieth century at least. People had a superstitious belief about 'hungry grass.'

They believed that if you trod on a piece of turf where someone had collapsed and died of hunger during the famine, you would suddenly feel terrible hunger pangs, and if you didn't have something to eat, such as a sweet in your pocket, you would die. This has been recounted to me as a fact by an articulate individual with a straight face.

So it may not just have been that they were mentally enslaved by the Catholic Church. This doesn't explain why children in Irish orphanages were often treated extremely badly. It would have made more sense to cherish them.

Evolution has designed women to give birth of course, and it's easy to think it's as unproblematic as breathing in and out. But I've recently seen an article on the net about a woman in SubSaharan Africa.

After giving birth, the blood from the patch where the placenta had been attached, was pouring out 'like water.' She would have bled to death had not the midwife been alert enough to remember a cheap new technique for dealing with it.

In poor African and South American countries where the Catholic Church has interdicted contraception, they often don't have state of the art medical technology, and as for blood donors! The AIDS pandemic must have played havoc with that idea.

When contraception was being expounded in the West, one slogan we heard was 'every child a wanted child.' Up to then, most children were mistakes or accidents.

Obviously, I was. Would it be better if I wasn't here at all? My thoughts on the subject have fluctuated over the years. I'll just say that the situation is not problem free.

Perhaps most of us have 'ghost children', children who don't actually exist, but might have done, had circumstances been slightly different.


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dai



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am glad that you mentioned " ghost children " that were longed for but did not materialise except in our imaginations : but these are not just children that we might have fathered / mothered but also siblings such as my dead elder brother Guy / Guto who was stillborn but alive until shortly before birth presumably killed by the Rhesus Factor which delivered me as a " blue baby " and nearly killed my mother at my sister's birth. I got to know about Guy after disclosing a fantasised elder brother to my mother when I was about seven. She found comfort in being told by a Spiritualist years later that my father was present with a young man after his death. Now : you must have wondered about your natural siblings and fantasised about them before you actually met them - ?
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: dee Reply with quote

I imagined I might well have half siblings. I didn't imagine that my real parents had eventually married and that I had a full brother and full sister with strong Lancastrian accents. For all I knew my ghostly siblings could have been anywhere in the world.

My real siblings didn't have a Marianne shaped hole in their lives - at least they weren't aware of it - for they had never been told of my existence. Our parents had to break it to them in early 2004 after receiving a letter from me.

The shock was immense as my brother confirmed in an e-mail to me. I think one of their emotions was anger, partly at being kept in the dark. My father's brother knew about me and so did my mother's sisters, but I don't think my paternal grandparents ever knew.

I did have a ghost brother though. I found out as a teenager that my adoptive mother had had a son who died shortly after birth, and yes it was caused by rhesus blood group incompatibility.

Had he lived, they would not have thought of adopting children. The innocent child had a lot to answer for indirectly! A friend said it was just as well my adoptive parents had not had children of their own - successful ones that is - as they would not have been very bright.

I said it was a great pity their son had not lived. They would have had something in common with him. They were frustrated because my adopted sister and I were not comprehensible to them.

I never felt I had anything in common with them. It was quite a disastrous mismatch. It only added to the suffering they had experienced in losing their son.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: melissa brown Reply with quote

I hope that 'Melissa Brown' is a pseudonym. Melissa Brown was a 14 year old girl at high school back in 2004.

She had a regular boyfriend Dwain. She really needed confidential help when she suspected she was pregnant. She couldn't tell her mother Maureen as 'my mother would kill me.'

She was counselled by 21 year old Claire Chapman. It was too late for a morning after pill but after a positive pregnancy test, she was provided with two tablets to take a certain number of hours apart.

These would bring about a chemical abortion which is as painless and untraumatic as abortion gets.

After taking the first pill, her mother Maureen found out about the situation. She was in a massive strop because her maternal rights had been breached as she saw it.

She had had to sign a consent form twice the previous year when Melissa had her appendix out. But no one had even had the decency to tell her about this.

She decided that she wanted her 14 year old daughter to have a baby. She exerted emotional blackmail to persuade Melissa that this would be a good idea. So Melissa never took the second pill.

When Maureen later frog marched Melissa to the GP's office, the doctor was appalled and frantic. The first pill would have damaged the embryo irretrievably.

After the prognosis was spelt out in horrific detail, Melissa finally had a comparatively gruelling medical abortion as a hospital inpatient, a particularly daunting prospect for someone hardly more than a child.

Melissa had not wanted her mother to know anything. You can understand why. Her mother told everyone the story by going to the papers, complaining about how her rights as a mother had been violated.

She also complained that at 21, Claire Chapman was too young to be a counsellor. But she thought 14 year old Melissa old enough to be a mother.

I should think a patient would find it much easier to speak to a young adult, not much older than herself.

Nothing illegal had happened. Under the Gillick Competence guidelines, a child is 'a person, not an object of concern.' And domineering mothers like Maureen are living proof of why children need autonomy.

We have already discussed on the 'Germaine' thread why early pregnancy is inadvisable. That is not to say it should not be tolerated at all.

I watched a programme called 'Natalie's Baby.' 14 year old Natalie was an excellent mother to her baby son. I'm not saying that anyone should be forced to have an abortion. That would be criminal assault and a serious human rights abuse.



As emotionally mature as Natalie was, she was lucky to avoid the medical problems often caused by premature pregnancy. And her education was, at best, interrupted.

Maureen thought that any mother would want her 14 year old daughter to have a baby rather than otherwise, as she did herself. Yet she did not want teenagers to be granted the respect and privacy that adults take for granted.

Maureen believed herself to be an excellent mother. She was sadly mistaken.

As Jessica Lewis said, a good parent recognises that a child is a separate person.

Parents have no rights in cases like this. The subject is none of their business.

In any case, some parents are untrustworthy. Some are sexual perverts.Some are away with the fairies. Some are status ridden egomaniacs. I'm afraid that Maureen is one of these.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: typical priest Reply with quote

An Italian priest has gone on Facebook to rant at a young girl who objected to being raped. He said 'Sweetie, I'm sorry but if you swim in a tank full of piranhas, you must expect to be eaten.'

He later clarified that he was not attacking the girl personally. He just wanted to make young people and their parents 'think'. What he wanted them to think was that if children are raped, it is their fault .

I say 'children' because the girl he blamed for being raped was described as 'underage'. According to Wikipedia, the age of consent in Italy is 14, so she can have been no older than 13, and may be 12 or even younger.

The priest also said that this is what you should expect if you go anywhere near these immigrants who are now swarming into Italy. I should imagine that statistically, it is even more likely to happen if you go anywhere near a priest.

In the interests of accuracy, I will add that when put under pressure, the priest 'apologised unreservedly.' But we know what his real feelings are.
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dai



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-42085065

Sort of related - http://www.copinginternational.com
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject: sad Reply with quote

I find this story very sad. It pushes my buttons on all sorts of levels.

This girl was partly a victim of the starry eyed illusions that our society encourages, not to mention the delusion that a priest will be honest and caring, which is highly unlikely.

Here I must pay tribute to 'After Adoption Cymru'. In the nicest possible way, the counsellor - whom you must see by law - will tell you to put both feet on the ground.

You shouldn't expect contact with a long lost parent to be lovely. It most probably won't be. Even if two long lost relatives do run straight into each others' arms, that is actually the worst thing that can happen.

It's counter intuitive to say that, but if they do that, they have nowhere to go from there.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:09 am    Post subject: hija Reply with quote

Donald Trump's administration has capitulated, and freed an undocumented teenage girl - perhaps she was a bad mujer from Mexico - from a detention centre so she could have a safe and legal abortion, something they had been preventing for over two weeks.

She was then released into the care of a 'sponsor'. Of course, I don't really know for sure which shithole country she came from. She was known only as 'Jane Moe.'

The great American public has not been as exercised about this as they might have been, though some women's rights groups did advocate for her, as the state of Hawaii was imminently expecting to be bombed by North Korea - and it might have been a nuclear strike.
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