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The Mother of All Witches - but what were her politics ?
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Moritz



Joined: 10 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dai wrote:
Those two posts made me smile ... You can edit a post two different ways : if you have just posted you can click the " back " button twice and simply adjust what you have written and post over it again. Or you can use the " edit " button on the top right of what you have posted.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UHH8HRtjl-o

I took a further look at that : I wonder whether witchcraft only really means imagining or describing the world differently ? E.g. is Socialism really only a sort of Sourcery ? Is Liberalism merely Saucery ?

Indeed, Marx assumed that the Working Class would be large and organized.

The old slogan was "Arm the workers, seize the Power, proclaim a Republicq with Liberty and Justice for all." The new slogan is arm the Worker singular England is the country where the ruling class don't rule, the working class don't work and the middle class aint in the middle.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:47 am    Post subject: rebellion Reply with quote

Of course Sorcery is a subversive way of looking at the word. As the Bible says, rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:48 pm    Post subject: Anna non regina Reply with quote

You are so funny, Moritz! Up to 23 June 2016, the Middle Ages ended in 1453, with the fall of Constantinople. But since Brexit, it's 1485 with Bosworth.

So, it's goodbye Columbus then!

Our school history book 'The Middle Ages' warned us not to assume that people were aware that they were living in medieval times. No one woke up one morning and said, ''That's the end of the Middle Ages! Now it's time for the Early Modern Age.'' Historians think up these designations long after the event.

Well, I don't know. People heard of girls and boys raped by Islamists on the altars of Byzantine churches. Maybe it was their 9/11.

Margaret Beaufort would have gone out on a counter jihad if anyone had organised one or said she would - not as a Crusader bride for Edmund Tudor had put her off sex - but as a washerwoman or anything else that was required.

I don't accept that Ann Nevill was queen by victory. The squalid murder of two children cannot be so described. In UK law now, you can't inherit anything from someone you have murdered.

Ann was crowned. She was topless under a cloak and was anointed between the breasts as well as in other places. It created a presumption of queenship.

The present queen thinks she has no right to abdicate as she has been anointed. It was so holy that it was the only part of the ceremony not to be televised.

But Edward v and Edward viii were neither crowned nor anointed. They were still kings. Lambert Simnel was crowned in Dublin Cathedral with a crown taken from a statue of the BVM. Was he king?

Do I think Richard was not king because he was a cripple? Who do you take me for? Jac o' the North? The Fred Phelps hate cartel has a web site called 'God Hates Cripples', but they think God hates everyone.

Yes, a Welsh prince bit his brother's nose off so he could not be king. King David ceased to be king when he became impotent even with Abishag. English law lacks this fascinating yet primitive quirk.

To ascertain if I hate cripples, check out my latest posts under 'Just Call Me Homicidal Dave' in which I expose the Nazis' final crime against humanity which didn't detonate until the early 60s.

Even if Tricky Dicky was king, Ann was not queen.

Ann became Lancastrian Princess of Wales on marrying Edward of Lancaster. Had the battle of Tewkesbury gone the other way, she might eventually have become queen.

After the prince and his legal father Henry vi were eliminated, Ann might have been in great peril. What if she was pregnant with a Lancastrian heir?

An accident might have been arranged, fatal to the foetus if not to herself. For instance, she might have been pushed downstairs.

But it looks as if it was known that she was not pregnant. The marriage may not even have been consummated. Chronicles still called her 'the maiden.'

She was still a potential headache for her sister Isabel Nevill and brother-in-law, George of Clarence.

Those who oppose anti-male sexism write to the papers to complain that when Lady Diana married Prince Charles, she became Princess Diana but when Captain Mark Phillips married Princess Anne, he didn't become Prince Mark.

I'm happy to say it was not ever thus. The Kingmaker did not inherit the title Earl of Warwick. He had it only because he married the Countess of Warwick, Ann 'Nan' Beauchamp.

Nan had won the jackpot on inheritance. On the death of her brother, it looked as if she would have to share his lands with her three legitimate half-sisters from her father's first marriage.

But in a controversial ruling, judges held that she was entitled to the lot under the doctrine of 'proximity of the blood.' She was her brother's only full sister.

The windfall was a curse in disguise. After the bloodbath at Tewkesbury, Nan fled into sanctuary.

She bombarded female nobles with letters imploring them to stick up for her, including Edward iv's eldest daughter Bessy who was a little child.

It did no good. Edward iv decreed that the Countess of Warwick should be treated as if 'she was naturally dead.' Isabel could have the Warwick inheritance immediately as well as the Nevill lands that were not entailed in the male line.

But the catch was that primogeniture did not apply to women. Her little sister Ann could claim a half share.

Ann disappeared. It is rumoured that George and Isabel forced her to work as a kitchen maid under an assumed identity. She can have had few relevant skills.

Richard discovered her whereabouts, and spirited her away to the sanctuary of St Martin Le Grand. Let's not assume any chivalrous motive.

He was activated by greed. George and Richard thrashed out who should have what in the presence of Edward iv. At one point, George agreed that 'he might well have my lady his sister-in-law but they would part no livelode [livelihood.]'

Richard declined. He was not interested in Ann without her lands.

Edward finally agreed to give him a generous share, but they still needed loads of dispensations. George had even needed a dispensation because his mother was Isabel's godmother, creating a spiritual relationship.

Richard and Ann were first cousins once removed, and in several other ways. She had been married to Edward of Lancaster who was Richard's cousin. They were brother and sister-in-law which created affinity.

Somebody has searched the Vatican library to check if they had been granted sufficient dispensations. They never were.

Richard had a clause put into secular law, that he would be the sole possessor of Ann's lands in the event of divorce. For divorce read nullity.

You say Richard as king was head of the Church. He wasn't yet king.

Edward was king when he married Elizabeth Wydvil, but Richard still argued that the marriage was not valid.

He said it had not taken place publicly in the face of the Church of England. But Richard and Ann were not publicly married either.

We don't know when, where or even if they married, only that they cohabited, and allowed people to think they were married.

After the death of Edward of Middleham, Richard began to speak of how he had sufficient grounds for divorce. Again, for divorce read nullity.

The chronicler recorded this without knowing what he meant. It is the historian Michael Hicks who worked it out.

Ann was only 28 but her state of health put her 'past her sell by date'. Richard didn't expect more heirs from her.

It became obvious that there was no need for divorce as she was racing towards the grave.

Apparently, to hurry her up, he put round the story that she was already dead, and had all the bells in London rung.

Ann tottered out of her bedroom to seek reassurance that he was not seeking her death. When she died during a solar eclipse, that was proof positive to the superstitious that Richard had had a hand in it.

Not long afterwards, Richard felt the need to make a public speech denying that he was planning an incestuous marriage with his niece Bessy. He also denied that he was 'willing or glad of the death of his queen but as sorry and in heart as heavy as a man might be...' The chronicler said that many present knew that the reverse was true.

Check out excerpts online from Michael Hicks' book on Ann Nevill. Sympathise with her, if you like, as one of Richard's victims. But don't waste too much pity. She kept her mother prisoner at Middleham and was very cruel to her.

Ann was both a victim and a beneficiary of the Wars of the Roses, but a queen, nah!

I say Ann Nevill was not queen!


Last edited by marianneh on Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Moritz



Joined: 10 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, it's goodbye Columbus then!

Our school history book 'The Middle Ages' warned us not to assume that people were aware that they were living in medieval times. No one woke up one morning and said, ''That's the end of the Middle Ages! Now it's time for the Early Modern Age.'' Historians think up these designations long after the event.

Well, I don't know. People heard of girls and boys raped by Islamists on the altars of Byzantine churches. Maybe it was their 9/11.

Margaret Beaufort would have gone out on a counter jihad if anyone had organised one or said she would - not as a Crusader bride for Edmund Tudor had put her off sex - but as a washerwoman or anything else that was required.

I don't accept that Ann Nevill was queen by victory. The squalid murder of two children cannot be so described. In UK law now, you can't inherit anything from someone you have murdered.

Ann was crowned. She was topless under a cloak and was anointed between the breasts as well as in other places. It created a presumption of queenship.
The present queen thinks she has no right to abdicate as she has been anointed. It was so holy that it was the only part of the ceremony not to be televised.

But Edward v and Edward viii were neither crowned nor anointed. They were still kings. Lambert Simnel was crowned in Dublin Cathedral with a crown taken from a statue of the BVM. Was he king?

Victory
I meant victory v Lancaster, Clarence, Buckingham, Hastings etc. Victory v Princes in the Tower had already been achieved by the Act of Parliament. That is why no-one ever says "the kings in the Tower."

Queen is wrong, both Edward II and Richard II were forced to sign their own deposition statutes. Edward 5 and 8 and Lady jane Grey weren't king long enough to be coronated. If they had lasted longer, they would have been crowned. Simnel would have been king ifn he had had victory.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:27 am    Post subject: pure grace Reply with quote

From the pedantic point of view, Edward v and Prince Richard were the king and prince in the Tower. But from this moment I renounce pedantry.

The English throne was occupative at this time. So in an act of pure grace I will stop carping and say that Ann Nevill was queen. But by the legalistic and nit picking standards of Richard she was not.
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Moritz



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: pure grace Reply with quote

marianneh wrote:
From the pedantic point of view, Edward v and Prince Richard were the king and prince in the Tower. But from this moment I renounce pedantry.

The English throne was occupative at this time. So in an act of pure grace I will stop carping and say that Ann Nevill was queen. But by the legalistic and nit picking standards of Richard she was not.


No. Ifn you wanna be pedantic, the statute declared them to be NOT princes at all. That was unnecessarily severe. All we actually needed was a law that Richard is king. Everybody says "Princes in the Tower" and nobody except yourself says Richard was not king. Therefore, the clause that Richard is king remains in force and the clause making the princes NOT princes is obsolete.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject: scream Reply with quote

To return to the thread's original subject, an evangelical pastor and his congregation recently stood around a bonfire and joined their hands in prayer. They had come to exorcise 25 year old Vilma Trujillo Garcia whom they believed to be a witch.

The healing consisted of stripping her naked, binding her hand and foot, and throwing her on the bonfire.

Vilma was found near a ravine hours later by her 15 year old sister. She had 80 per cent burns. She was taken to a hospital in Managua, the capital of Nicaragua where this sorry story spun out.

She died a few days later. Police have now arrested the pastor Juan Gregorio Rocha Romera. He now says that she was inspired by demons to jump onto the bonfire.

A cell phone video has only recently come to light of Peruvians burning 73 year old Rosa Villa Jarionca to death. She can be heard screaming. They had accused her of causing sickness by witchcraft. This happened in September 2016.

In the 1980s, somebody in Mexico accused his wife of causing the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul ii by witchcraft. The neighbours stoned her to death.

In 'Give Us Jehane to Burn or Drown!' I mentioned a woman burnt at the stake after being tried by a tribal court in Paraguay in 2014. A book by Christina Hole shows us that witch accusations did not end when witchcraft ceased to be a recognised crime in this country.

There would always be some idiots in a country village who wanted to 'swim' the local crone suspected of witchcraft. 'Swimming the witch' meant throwing her into a river or pond. Sometimes they did it. Of course, it was often with fatal results.

Gradually, this informal witch persecution ceased until stirred up by 'The Cooke Report' in the 80s. These traditional beliefs are taking a bit longer to fizzle out in Latin America. It's hard to say why, but the last auto da fe was held in Mexico in 1850. Inquisitors didn't really believe in witchcraft as such though. They were too busy executing heretics.

It would be lovely to think these people will see sense one day.It doesn't look like it's going to be any time soon.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: the evil eye strikes like lightning Reply with quote

Trevor Noah says that Zulus fought the white man. The Xhosa were more canny. They played chess with the white man, figuratively speaking. They used strategic thinking.

What clever people! They won. They're still thinking rationally, aren't they? Not always. Because their culture was suppressed by Afrikaners, they now cling defiantly to their traditional ways, whether it's a good idea or not.

In 1994, people had to queue in the scorching heat for hours to vote in the first multi-racial elections. A story went round that someone asked an old granny how long she had been waiting to vote. ''About three hundred years'', she replied.

After the release of Nelson Mandela but while apartheid was still in force, you would see activists proclaiming, for instance, ''I am 87, and I am still not old enough to vote. How long, O Lord, how long?''

Desmond Tutu's Truth and Reconciliation Commission was an extraordinary thing.The Christian emphasis on forgiveness gets on my nerves. But perhaps there was some horse sense here.

You can't forgive someone until they admit what they did and that it was wrong, and then stop doing it. Perhaps when someone admits their complicity in injustice humbly and sincerely, your burden of anger will fall away. Perhaps that is all you need. Maybe you don't need vengeance after all.

The aspiration to become the Rainbow People of God sounded a bit ambitious. They had a nice try with the blended national anthem.

South Africa hasn't become the basket case that Zimbabwe is. But it's not all rosy of course. Only a few years ago, striking miners were shot down. Mandela's successor as president refused to believe that HIV causes AIDS, and caused many deaths that way. The danger from burglars is terrible.

And there is another horror that outsiders rarely hear about. More people consult witch doctors than conventional medical practitioners. Maybe this is sometimes effective. My own great great aunt is said to have been the village witch in a rural community in Pembrokeshire.

She didn't cast spells but did know about herbal and other folk remedies, and she did deliver babies. That's one kind of witch.

In South Africa people also believe implicitly in demonic possession. Trevor Noah hated sitting through three or four hours of holy yelps and hysteria in hot, stuffy churches when he was a boy. But it became fun in the end when the pastor cast demons out.

It was to be hoped that the allegedly possessed person would speak in tongues and run around babbling madly. In a successful exorcism, the pastor would tap the demoniac lightly and he would tumble to the floor like a felled tree.

I remember a scene from British TV a few years before the end of apartheid where Desmond Tutu was addressing a crowd. A few days earlier, a mob had burnt a woman to death.

Tutu was afraid that outsiders would think that people who could do such a thing were not worthy of citizenship. They could not be entrusted with the vote. It's true that the burning of Bridget Cleary was used as an argument against giving home rule to Ireland.

I don't know if this was a separate incident, but I read of an old woman being burnt - informally of course - as a witch in South Africa in 1993. She had had red inflamed eyes. This was held to be proof positive of her guilt.

Poland was a 'land without stakes' for most of the years of the Burning Times in Europe. But during a period of lawless statelessness while the country was carved up, a few old women were burnt for bewitching cattle.

Poland has the dubious honour of hosting the last witch burning in Europe. it was 1793. This was 99 years before Manya Sklodowska from Warsaw, later Madame Curie, enrolled at the Sorbonne.

Eerily, one of the alleged witches had red inflamed eyes, and this was used as evidence. Dafydd will be aware that I was the victim of a witch hunt or a bit of scapegoating while a teenage student. An undergraduate with many issues including anorexia was convinced I wanted her dead, and was trying to bring it about by some mysterious means.

Unfortunately, she also convinced the barking mad idiot of the warden of the hall of residence of this, and many other people. Even my adoptive parents took it for granted I was guilty. They had always had a very low opinion of me.

Of course I did feel like killing her before too long, but that was all her own work. Among the pieces of evidence she presented was that I had 'funny eyes.'

In fact, I have lovely eyes. She had awful eyes, like those of a lizard, although she couldn't help that.

This recurring phenomenon may be related to the idea of the 'evil eye' which is found in so many cultures.

Trevor Noah surprised me. In his book, 'Born a Crime' he said you can be tried for witchcraft in South Africa today - legally in a real court. A man was put on trial in South Africa for causing another person to be struck by lightning by the use of sorcery.

This was not the 1700s. It was 2011.

In many communities there are no tall buildings and few tall trees. Humans are the tallest things around, so they do tend to be struck by lightning quite a bit. Curiously, the student who gave me so much trouble, also claimed to have been struck by lightning.

If Trevor had a beef with someone who was later struck by lightning he could be taken to court for witchcraft. It would do no good if his lawyer argued that witchcraft does not exist. That would lose the sympathy of the court.

I thought there were no juries in South Africa. There wasn't one in the Oscar Pistorious trial.

Do learned judges believe this sort of thing? Of course they do.

Why am I even surprised? Blackstone who wrote 'Commentaries on the Laws of England' believed in witchcraft.

I wonder how long it will be before South Africa expunges witchcraft from its criminal code. How long O Lord, how long?


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject: zombification Reply with quote

There are witches today, Wiccans and other pagans who self identify as witches. But there are no witches in the sense of a person who is a medium for the work of the Devil.

Of course witchcraft doesn't exist as it is not possible to do anyone harm by supernatural means. But we should add a caveat here.

What if people believe in witchcraft so strongly that they become bewitched by the power of suggestion alone? This can happen. It often does.

I had a friend who suffered from manic depression as it was then called. He thought that an exceptionally unpleasant person we both knew had been trying to harm him by magical means.

But he wasn't worried about it. He thought that by his own mystic powers, he had thrown the curse back on the offender. He was surprised that I thought it all imagination.

Luckily, his belief in his own powers protected him. The Spartan life coach Richard Grannon says that there are zombies today. At least there are people who think they are zombies. They are in a torpor and really believe themselves to be dead.

The Spartan life coach tells us too that in Australia, it is illegal to point the bone of an elder at a person as it can make them drop dead, or sicken and die within a few days.

The curse works because they believe in it. I assume this is an Aboriginal custom.

Siggy Freud mentioned how some disgusting shaman killed people by pointing a bone at them. They all died within a few days. A woman who didn't believe in the curse - no doubt she was of a different ethnic identity - thought she could put a stop to it.

In front of witnesses, she went up and slapped him in the face. He pointed the bone at her.

She remained perfectly healthy. And after that, the spell was broken. Everyone could see that the emperor had no clothes.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject: she's a witch! Reply with quote

In northern Ghana, if anything at all goes wrong, the community will usually accuse a woman of being a witch.During a meningitis outbreak in Kumbugu in 1997, a mob battered to death two women whom they accused of causing it by sorcery.

Hundreds of women have become refugees in their own countries. Their neighbours have accused them of witchcraft.

There are villages of refuge for those accused of witchcraft but they are also prisons. It's not that the women are prevented from leaving, but they have nowhere to go.

Tarana arrived half dead at Gambaga camp which has sheltered alleged witches since the late eighteenth century. She had endured a 30 mile trek. Chief Gambaraaba had her wounds tended to, and made an appeal for her children to join her.

They didn't respond. Perhaps they were afraid of being damned by association.

The grown up daughters of women accused of witchcraft do sometines come to the camps to help out but they usually delegate the responsibility to their own daughters.

Seven year old Adijah Iddrissu shells nuts with her 'doll like' hands while her eyes follow the movements of her grandmother at Kpatinga Camp. She has been there a year already.

Iddrissu says she would love to send Adijah to school but she really needs her to work. 15 of the 45 women in the camp have granddaughters to support them. None ot the girls go to school.

They won't be able to rejoin society when their grandmothers die. They would probably be stoned for associating with a witch.

In the village of Jharkand in India, a meeting is held by the senior men. A 'fragile' young woman is dragged in front of them.

They throw her to the ground, declaring ''This woman is a witch!'' Two young boys poke her with sticks. They demand a demonstration of her magical powers.''Show us what you can do!''

Two men held the protesting woman, Baudhaniya Mahji still while others forced her to swallow a cup of cow urine. She gagged on it.

The village council sentenced her to exile. She was to leave the village, leaving her house, land and animals to her brother-in-law as compensation for killing his father by witchcraft.

She and her month old baby were now homeless wanderers on the face of the earth. Her face was already bruised and bloated from being repeatedly punched.

This had happened when she was dragged naked through the village the previous evening. An observer said, 'Even from a distance I could see the welt marks where sticks had fallen repeatedly on her slender frame. ...Tears, blood and mucus had dried on her face and she looked lifeless.'
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