Y Repwblic
Conversations with Wales' Republicans : Poblachiaethwyr - Repwbligwyr - Gweriniaethwyr

The Primal Wound
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Y Repwblic Forum Index -> Seiat Gwragedd - Women's Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:25 am    Post subject: Welsh Patagonians Reply with quote

I am happy to say that the Welsh Assembly is to be renamed the Welsh Parliament after a consultation. I suppose Dai doesn't agree. He would probably like to see it downgraded to a parish council.

I am also happy to say that 1,500 people are learning Welsh in Patagonia since the launch of the Welsh project last year. A school for small children, Ysgol y Cwm which teaches in Welsh and Spanish has opened with 50 pupils.

I am so glad for these children, and not just because I love the dear heniaith. Under the military junta, children of Welsh ancestry had to take Spanish names, and their culture was suppressed.

And this was by no means the worst example of Argentinian children being deprived of their roots. The children of the 'disappeared' were adopted by elite families who were well in with the government. This was the worst and sickest forced adoption policy you can imagine. It is the literal truth that these children were often brought up by the very people who had physically murdered their natural parents.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:04 pm    Post subject: the disappeared Reply with quote

Isabel Peron's socialist government in Argentina fell to a military coup led by General Videla in 1976. Anyone who felt nostalgic for the previous government was considered subversive. Socialists were now in mortal danger.

The generals were deeply Catholic. They were also 'vengeful and murderous.' A month after the coup, Raquel was celebrating her son's 24th birthday at his house. The guests had finished the cake, sung 'Happy Birthday', and were playing cards.

Three men in civilian clothes knocked at the door - it was midnight - and said they wanted to examine the books in the house. Some of the books were political. So they bundled Raquel's son and daughter-in-law into the back of a police car. They said they would bring them back in a few hours.

Raquel began to scream and sob. Her husband naively asked why she was taking on so. They would be back soon. Raquel told him he didn't understand what was happening in Argentina. They would never seen Andres and Liliana again. She later said, ''I was right.''

Delia said,'It was 2 am on October 16 1976 when they came for my son and daughter-in-law Jorge and Estela. They took them in the night, leaving my three year old granddaughter alone, sleeping in her cot. As they left, they knocked on the neighbour's door and said, ''Don't open. This is the Army. There is a baby alone in the flat next door.''

'She looked through the keyhole and saw the couple being taken away, handcuffed and hooded, Estela in an advanced stage of pregnancy and obviously in distress at being forced to abandon her daughter.

When they left the building, the neighbour walked into the flat, because they had left the door open and she picked up my granddaughter Virginia and took her to her place.'

Delia was just about to leave in the morning for the primary school where she worked, when she had a phone call from her neighbour asking her to fetch her granddaughter.She said, ''I had no idea what was going on. I asked her, 'What do you mean, they have taken away Jorge and Estela? Why? Who took them? Where?' ''

They came for Rosa's daughter and son-in-law one midnight in October 1978. Her daughter Patricia was eight months pregnant. Rosa said, ''She was an idealist. She wanted what was best for our country, for her children and for the generation to come. She was fighting a cruel dictatorship and she gave her life for the cause. Patricia too left behind a toddler in her cot, two year old Mayane.

Last edited by marianneh on Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: the mothers of the plaza de mayo Reply with quote

The mothers of the disappeared began to gather outside the police stations and army barracks, inquiring about the whereabouts of their grown up children.They were not small groups. These kidnappings were happening all over Buenos Aires and throughout Argentina.

The activity amounted to little less than a revolution. Women were very much background figures in society. But '[m]otherhood allowed them to build a bond and shape a movement without men.'

They asked priests and journalists for help. The Catholic Church supported the military junta.

Most journalists were too frightened. Ony the English language 'Buenos Aires Herald' reported news of the 'desaprecidos.'

Uki Goni remmebered that women often came up the steps to report the kidnapping of their children, 'but I rarely saw a man.' Sometimes a husband would be dragged along by his wife. He would be saying, ''Shut up! I'm going to lose my job.''

The wife would silence him. She said, ''I don't care whether they kill me or kill you. I want to know where my child is.''

Many of these women had only a secondary school education and had been socialised to be housewives. Few of them understood the fierce left wing beliefs of their children.

Nor were they supported by their relatives. Raquel said, ''[A]fter my son and his wife disappeared, my six sisters and brother would have nothing to do with us. They were terrified the same thing would happen to them.''

The women put together twelve case histories, and contacted human rights organisatons throughout the world.

Delia said, ''Mothers don't want to fight. My son, my beloved son, Jorge, was my only son. As a mother, I couldn't not look for him. I was not going to abandon him. I think we found courage in our pain...I knew my daughter-in-law Estela when she was small. She was one of my pupils and I taught her to read and write. At 15 she started dating my son. I knew and loved her since she was little.''

Estela was over eight months pregnant when she was taken away, Liliana was five months pregnant, and Patricia three months. At first their mothers and mothers-in-law were concerned about their prenatal diet and medical care.

A year went by, and there were still no answers. The older women began to walk round with placards in front of the presidential palace. They had to keep moving so as to evade arrest for 'illegal assembly.' They became known as 'the mothers of the Plaza de Mayo'.

''The police were terrible'' said Raquel. They charged at them with batons, choked them with tear gas and rode over them on horseback. The week before the invasion of the Falklands was the worst. ''They hit us with batons and fired at us with rubber bullets.''

The defeat of the Argentinian army in the Falklands brought down the military junta. Now it was possible to uncover the truth.

Guilermo Cook of the Buenos Aires Herald had devastating news. The fate of the pregnant kidnapped women was sealed the day they disappeared. There were lists of couples from all divisions of the armed forces 'who were waiting for the birth of our grandchildren.'

As soon as the young women gave birth they were killed, and the babies were adopted by couples well in with the military junta. The best the older women could now hope for, was to trace their grandchildren. The mothers of the Plaza de Mayo had become the grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo.

Last edited by marianneh on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:35 pm    Post subject: guillermo Reply with quote

More than two decades after Patricia disappeared, her daughter Mayane was working as a volunteer at the Grandmothers' Office. She answered the phone to an anonymous caller who told her about a baby born at ESMA, the Army's Mechanical School which had once been a prison.

The caller said the baby boy was born on 15 November 1978 which was about the time Patricia was due to give birth. The boy's mother was a 26 year old medical student, just like Patricia.

Rosa was cautious, but with the impetuosity of youth, Mayane rushed to the address where the boy - now a young man - was supposed to be working.

''What do you want?''asked Guillermo. ''I think we may be brother and sister'', said Mayane. They were.

All the Grandmothers had their blood stored in a bank in Seattle. Mayane showed Guillermo pictures of her parents. He had a distinct resemblance to her father.That aftermoon Guillermo offered his arm for a blood sample.

Rosa was in Boston where the University of Massachusetts was giving her an honorary degree. She had a phonecall from the geneticist, saying, ''Rosa, he's your grandson!''

Rosa won't acknowledge that Patricia is dead until the state confirms it. She says, ''I am so proud of her. She was a militant yes, but she was fighting against state terrorism.''

Guillermo was able to see inside the ESMA building. He told Sue Lloyd Roberts,''I was born here. My mother was tied to a table, just an ordinary table, not a hospital table.

'There was an army doctor and two other women prisoners, who had some experience, to help. She asked the doctor if she could hold me. She named me Guillermo Fernando. She spoke to me and told me she was my mother.''

The doctor then parted them for ever. Guillermo was given to an army officer and his wife.

Guillermo has done the research. He has no serious doubt about what happened to Patricia.

He is sure she was drugged and was thrown to her death from a plane as were so many others on the notorious 'death flights.' This was a standard method of execution.

The planes took off from a military airport on an estuary of the River Plate outside Buenos Aires. The pilots were instructed to throw the prisoners out to sea.

But their bodies began to wash up on the shores of the River Plate which was a bit of a give away. After that, the pilots began to throw them to their deaths from further out to sea.

Last edited by marianneh on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:47 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:38 am    Post subject: catalina de sanctis Reply with quote

Catalina de Sanctis was brought up in a rich privileged family. But she knew something was not right.

She was not allowed to know she was adopted, but 'I had always doubted who I was.' She said, ''I have been confused all my life.''

Catalina said, ''At the age of seven or eight I looked in the mirror and said to myself that I look like no one I know. I asked my mother, 'Why don't I look like you or Papa?'' She said that I looked like an uncle of hers, but I did not believe her. I looked different;I did not fit in at the Catholic school they sent me to, and I could never get on with my adoptive father. He was a soldier and we had a different way of thinking.''

As an adult,Catalina saw TV ads urging children of the disappeared to contact the Grandmothers' organisation. Many well known TV anchors were themelves children of the disappeared, and they backed the campaign.

It was as if something clicked in Catalina's head. She confronted her adoptive mother, ''I am one of the daughters of the desaparecidos, aren't I?'' Her mother burst into tears, and admitted it.

But she stuck to the propaganda. She said the natural parents were bad people, terrorists who wanted nothing to do with their children. The Grandmothers were telling lies, and were snatching people from parents who loved them. She swore it was the truth.

Catalina was torn in two by her feelings. She had not been able to avoid internalising some of her adoptive family's attitiudes. She felt that she was complicit in their guilt. Part of her mind hated the Grandmothers.

She did not want to dob her adoptive parents in. She couldn't take that responsbility. What if they were arrested?

Her mind in turmoil, she fled to Paraguay with her boyfriend for a few months. When she returned, it was to a nightmare. Her adoptive mother was in a state of depression. Her adoptive father had hit the bottle. He was physically abusive to Catalina.

A family friend who suspected the truth, contacted the Grandmothers. They offered Catalina a blood test.

She took the plunge and discovered that her real parents were Myriam Ovando and Raul Rene de Sanctis, a psychology student and an anthropology student. They were both members of the Peronist youth. Myriam was 21 and five months pregnant when they both disappeared in April 1977.

Catalina's adoptive mother Maria Francisca Morilla had been trying to conceive for many years. In April 1977 she wrote to her soldier husband in excitement.

She had approached the Christian Family Movement which selected babies of 'subversive' mothers to be brought up by respectable families, loyal to the junta. She had spoken to personnel in charge of baby allocation. She informed her husband that the babies were always healthy, never deformed, and the births were always normal.

But there appeared to be something not quite normal about Catalina's birth. According to the records of the military hospital, it was Maria Francisca Morilla who had herself given birth to a baby girl. Myriam Ovando had had a dead foetus removed from her womb six days earlier.

But the blood test gave the lie to this. Catalina's adoptive parents were put on trial, accused of child abduction. Maria Francisca Morilla claimed she was having a breakdown and was too ill to face trial. It didn't work.

Witnesses and letters produced at trial revealed that Myriam had arranged for her baby to be christened Laura Catalina, and after they were parted, she believed she was being cared for by her own relatives.

Expecting to be killed, Myriam wrote to her own mother, asking her to 'remember me and love me through my daughter.' She added, 'although she doesn't know it, my blood runs through her veins.'Myriam was never heard of again.

Maria Francisca Morilla, a large stern looking woman appeared emotionless in the dock. She was given twelve years. Her husband Carlos Hidalgo Garzon sat bowed in the dock. He was given fifteen years.

As the sentences were read out, spectators in the public gallery cheered and applauded, and Catalina punched the air. It was 12 March 2013.

Catalina said, ''What made me change my attitude to my abductors was the realisation that they had made it necessary to murder my parents. Myriam and Raul were murdered in order for them to keep me and that made my adoptive parents accomplices in my parents' deaths.''

The primal wound hardly touches what Catalina is going through. What are her feelings? We can only hope that anger sustains her like strength.

Last edited by marianneh on Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:12 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: vita Reply with quote

On the shores of the River Plate, Sue Lloyd Roberts met Victoria Montenegro. In the background loomed granite slabs, memorials to the 30, 000 murdered by the military junta. The names of Victoria's parents are there, Hilda Romana Torres and Roque Orlando Montenegro.

With a hint of defensiveness, Victoria says she was furious with the Grandmothers when they contacted her.

''I really didn't want the truth or anything about my real family. I was very angry with the Mothers and the Grandmothers. I hated them profoundly.I was convinced that I was the biological daughter of my abductors.

''For me, it was a political thing. I believed they were just using me to get revenge on the colonel, the man I believed was my father.

''I had been brought up to believe that our country had gone through a war and that my father the colonel, had had to fight in that war and that was the reason that they wanted their revenge on him. I was brought up in an army barracks and subjected to a lot of political pressure when I was a child.''

Victoria is still in turmoil. She reluctanty agreed to a blood test and discovered that she was not as she had always thought, Maria Sol Tetzlaff, the 'pampered and privileged' daughter of a colonel but Victoria Montenegro, the child of two left wing activists who died for their beliefs.

She has readopted her birth name but can't quite shake off her conditioning. ''I see myself as very different from my real uncles, cousins and grandparents.I was brought up to have very strong beliefs which are hard to get rid of.''

She is now incandescent with rage against her adoptive parents. After all her real mother was a girl of 18 when she disappeared ten days after her daughter's birth, barely an adult. It was Victoria's adoptive parents who cut her young life so brutally short.

Victoria said,''I can see now that what tied me to them was nothing to do with love. We were like a spoil of war to them. I now see that my life must be what I can salvage from the past, and I can only do this by acknowledging my true identity...It was a shock for [her three teenage sons] too to find out that their grandfather was a fraud.''

Victoria has learnt that the colonel she believed to be her father was not merely a child abductor. He personally gave the order for her real parents' arrest and later their murder.

After such knowledge what peace or healing can there be? I believe, perhaps naively that in the long run, knowing the horribe truth is better than living a lie. Did the Bible have it right for once in saying, ' You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free'?

Last edited by marianneh on Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:04 am; edited 6 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: the third and the fourth generation Reply with quote

Argentina has bravely faced its recent past. Senior army officers and even priests are in prison. 'Nunca mas', never again' is the slogan.

But it would be quite wrong to say that every mystery of the past has been cleared up and every forcibly adopted grandchild traced. Raquel and Delia find it hard to be glad for Rosa that she has her grandson back, for they still do not know where their own grandchildren are, or if they are even alive.

Delia said she rang the doorbell of a house in Buenos Aires after being given a tip off. She told the person who answered that his son could be her grandson. He kicked her out immediately, but she kept on investigating. A later blood test revealed that the boy was not who he was supposed to be, but neither was he Delia's grandson.

After losing her son, Delia brought up her granddaughter Virginia who had been abandoned in her cot. Virginia never gave her any trouble. She went with her as a child to the Plaza de Mayo, and happily chased pigeons, not understanding the sobriety of the occasion.

At 18, Virginia was given a job in the Provincia bank which had a commitment to support the families of the disappeared. Two years later she married, and devoted herself to looking for her brother. She appeared on a programme called 'People Looking For People.' The bank supported the search.

Virginia had an emotional crisis and began to see a psychiatrist. When Sue Lloyd Roberts heard Delia talking about Virginia and heard the Spanish words, 'su suicidio', she couldn't take them in.

When she had to accept that Virginia had been driven to suicide, she lost her professional detachment, and burst into tears. In what she saw as embarrassing role reversal, it was Delia who had to take her hand and comfort her.

Virginia left two motherless children. They are the fourth generation to be affected by Argentina's dirty wars.

Last edited by marianneh on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: foggy island Reply with quote

According to Andy McSmith Argentina suffered another coup in December 1981 which brought General Leopoldo Galtieri to power. For the people, it was a case of 'same shit, different arsehole.'

But Galtieri had a great wheeze. Margaret Thatcher had given Argentina the impression that she considered the Falkland Islands an expensive white elephant which the UK should quiety abandon. An internal memo in the British Foreign Office even conceded that Argentina's clam to the Falklands was 'not entirely unjustified.'

I think someone warned Galtieri that Thatcher was a hard woman who had allowed hunger strikers in Northern Irish prisons, people of much the same ethnicity as herself, to starve to death, without a qualm. She should not be trifled with.

Galtieri didn't listen. He didn't believe she would fight for the Falkland Islands. He believed that if he invaded the foggy outcrops, he would get a cheap and easy victory which would cover his name with glory. It would take the people's minds off the fate of the disappeared.

For a short while after the invasion, it looked as if he was right. The Spanish name for the Falklands is so much prettier than ours. People were chanting in the streets of Buenos Aires, ''The Malvinas are Argentina's!''

It was only now that the British government and media began to refer to the Argentinian government as 'the military junta.' Margaret Thatcher had no ideological objection to South American dictatorships.

When the former dictator of Chile was later detained in the UK for human rights violations, she took his side,and often visited him. The Daily Mirror had a picture of them together, with the headline, 'Right wing Dictator Meets General Pinochet.'

My feelings about the Falklands War are extremely negative. Couldn't the Islanders have been evacuated instead of our throwing away our soldiers' lives?
The fictional teenage diarist Adrian Mole couldn't locate the Falkland Islands on the map. But his mother found them hidden under some bread crumbs.

Wales' connecton with the war was tragic. Plaid Cymru was the only political party to oppose the war. Michael Foot of Labour out thatchered Thatcher at least in rhetoric. Plaid was brave but received nothing but ridicule.

I may, of course, be entirely wrong in thinking that the Welsh Guards on the 'Sir Galahad' were left as sitting ducks because the British army thought they were a lower form of life.

Captain Hilarion Roberts found little hilarious about it. 'I experienced an extraordinary slow motion feeling of being burnt, and watched my hands become the colour of those rather sticky grey washing up gloves.Under the intense heat, my hands enlarged and the skin peeled off like talons of wax. And then I found my hair on fire and with these useless hands, I was trying to put my hair out!''

Simon Weston, a 20 year old guardsman watched, 'transfixed with horror' as his own hands fried and melted, his skin bubbling and flaking away like the leaves of a paperback on a bonfire.' He had to run through a wall of fire to escape, leaving behind those who were too injured to move.

As he ran he heard the sound of guns being fired. He believed some of his fellow Welsh Guards shot themselves, rather than face the hideous fate of burning to death.

I have been told that the Argentinian soldier who torpedoed the 'Sir Galahad', and indirectly incinerated Welshmen in the flower of their youth, was a Welsh speaking recruit from Patagonia. My partner refuses to believe this. He thinks it is propaganda.

On an anniversary programme a few years ago, a little boy said in Welsh that his father fought in the Falklands War for his country, Wales! It tore at my heart to hear this. I've never had a stiff upper lip. I wanted to howl in anguish.

The war did Wales no material good, nor the UK either. But it did make a conquering heroine of Margaret Thatcher, previously far from popular, and ensured her election victory in 1983. The Welsh Guards died to save her skin.

Last edited by marianneh on Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:13 pm; edited 6 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: the horror Reply with quote

Simon Weston's mother didn't recognise him. He survived with 46% burns. He has become a familiar figure as a bit of a pundit on talk shows, but he is seen as a cripple by coots as crazy as Jac o' the North. His son's jaw was broken by a cripple hater.

The British government banned soldiers who had been crippled in the Falklands from the victory parade. They thought they should be out of sight and out of mind.

In 1988, after some dithering, the BBC broadcast 'Tumbledown', the story of a Scots Guard who had half his brain blown away. He was one of the ugly sights the government wanted to hide away. His girlfriend ditched him for being a cripple as they lay in bed. He then revealed that he had just shat himself.

Interestingly, he himself shared Britain's now favourite prejudice. He said, ''I hate cripples. I always have.''

Mrs Thatcher wanted us to rejoice, not know the bad news. We were allowed to believe that four of the British dead had been shot down by Argentinians when in fact, they were killed in friendly fire.

Primero Felix Augusto was taken prisoner. He was so glad to be alive that he was friendly and chatty. But his British captors couldn't understand a word he said.

His gaurds wrongly thought he was making for a torpedo switch and shot him five times.

An unseaworthy British ship was hit by two exocets. Three people died in the fire, and five drowned.

18 year old Philip Williams was a stretcher bearer who became lost. He wandered in the fog for seven weeks after the war ended, sleeping in a shepherd's hut, and seeing no one but dead Argentinians. He was thought to be dead.

His return to the world was received as a good news story. But he was not together enough to play the role assigned to him. He had psychological problems, faced court martial, became a target for bullies, and was discharged.

Alexander Finlay was also a stretcher bearer at Tumbledown. He saw one colleague cut in two by a mortar, and a friend shot in the throat. He remained in the army but was so traumatised that his wife found him hiding in a fox hole he had constructed in the garden.

While serving in Northern Ireland, he became intoxicated, pulled a gun, threatened the lives of two other soldiers, fired into a TV set, and announced his intention to top himself.

Did the army send him for psychological
assessment? No, they court martialed him, and sentenced him to two years in prison.

I remember the Falklands War as the time that my amiable friends became infected with jingoism and said things like, ''I reckon we should drop the bomb on Argentina!'' My adoptive mother, who after all may not have been very bright, repeated stories about Argentinians firing on 'our boys' - as she called British soldiers - under the white flag. I never found out if this was a myth.

I had never heard that the first casualty of war is truth. But when she complained that Argentina recruited boys who should have been at school as soldiers, I did ask her if it was conscionable for us to go to the South Atlantic and kill schoolboys.

I had thought that perhaps it was the case that 'it's an ill wind that blows no good'. I thought that Argentina lost the war but won the peace. Galtieri fell from power. Constitutional government returned to Argentina.

But Andy McSmith thinks the war was not necessary to topple the junta. The age of dictators in South America was coming to an end anyway.

Last edited by marianneh on Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:04 pm; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: evita Reply with quote

What are the chances that Isabel Peron would have come to power in Argentina in the first place if she had not been the widow of a former president? They must have been slim, such was the attitude to women in South America. It was almost as bad as the USA where a woman can't become president, even if she is the wife of a former president and even if she won an outright majority in terms of votes cast.

Isabel may not even have been eligible for public office, had it not been for the influence of Juan Peron's late second wife Eva, affectionately known as Evita. Women could not even vote in Argentina until 1947. The charismatic former actress, Eva Peron is usually credited with achieving women's suffrage.

Eva devoted herself to women's causes and to making things easier for disadvantaged children. Idolised in later life and especially after her untimely death, Evita had suffered a poor and humiliating childhood.

It was not unusual for land owning men to have multiple families that they ran concurrently. As the child of her wealthy father's peasant concubine, Evita was disadvantaged in law and in society.

Forced adoptions in Argentina had nothing to do with illegitimacy. But it is not that Evita's soul was not scarred by her status as an illegitimate daughter. As First Lady of Argentina, she attempted to remove stigmatising legal terminology from public records dealing with non marital children. Instead she proposed that the sowers of wild oats should be labelled as 'illegitimate fathers.'

In the biographical film in which the title role was played by Madonna, Evita as a young girl is physically prevented from entering the church where her father's funeral is being held, because she is a bastard. At her own funeral, she was buried with such extravagant rites that the rest of the world was taken aback and rather discombobulated.

Before the Diana mourning in Britain, we looked down our noses at the passion and intensity with which Latin peoples wallowed in grief. We prided ourselves on our stiff upper lips. ''Oh, what a circus!'' we sneered superciliously.

Last edited by marianneh on Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:45 am; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: circus Reply with quote

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject: Et tu? Reply with quote

A number of Roman Catholic priests are in prison in present day Argentina, not as we may suppose for buggering children, but for their part in abducting them and murdering their parents. Hard as it is to believe today, before the Roman Catholic Church was exposed as a big paedophile scam, some campaigners seriously hoped for help and support from those they wrongly saw as men of God.

One of the Grandmothers became so incensed at a priest's refusal to listen to her account of her missing daughter that she shrieked and shook him by the arm. She remembers that he said, ''Madam, calm down. Don't scream or something may happen to you too.'' He had fleetingly revealed his true colours.

The Grandmothers went to Rome to petition Pope Paul vi. Chica Mariani petitioned for an audience with the Pope where she hoped to discuss the murders of her son and daughter-in-law and the kidnapping of her granddaughter.

The ushers told the Grandmothers to put themselves in the front row so the Pope would see them, but then whispered to him significantly. He greeted and shook the hands of everyone but the Grandmothers.

Pope Francis is seen as a reformer but his record is patchy if not mottled. He was born Jorge Mario Bergoglio in Argentina where, during the junta, he was a Jesuit priest.

In October 1977 he was implored by a father to help in the search for his daughter, Elena de la Cuadra who had disappeared earlier that year. Elena had been five months pregnant.

Bergoglio obligingly wrote to the Archbishop of La Plata. The archbishop later told Elena's father Roberto Luis de la Cuadra that a family was bringing up the baby well. They have never been able to trace the child but believe it was a girl christened Ana Libertad.

In 2010, Bergoglio was summoned to appear as a witness at a tribunal about the excesses of the junta. He said he knew that Elena de la Cuadra had been kidnapped but did not know that she was pregnant.

This made no sense to Sue Lloyd Roberts in view of what he had been previously told. She politely described him as 'disingenuous in the extreme.'

Just after Bergoglio was elected as Pope Francis in 2013, Jeremy Paxman interviewed Sue on Newsnight about the role of he who was now the Pope in the story of the disappeared.The next day, she received irate if not abusive letters from British Roman Catholics.

The fact is that the Catholic Church in Argentina supported the junta but would not coutenance the murder of pregnant women. This was because in Roman Catholic doctrine as of 1930, foetal life is sacred. But the lives of women are expendable.

The junta compromised. To accommodate the mores of the Roman Catholic Church, it kept pregnant prisoners alive until they had given birth, and then immediately killed them.

The Church was fine with that. It is entirely consitent with its theology even to this day.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: cry for me, Argentina Reply with quote

''Practically all Argentina has cried on this one'', said Ignacio Montaya Carlotto. The 36 year old musician, his face full of laughter lines, is not joking or deceiving himself.

He couldn't walk down the street without a member of the public rushing up to hug him and then burst into tears. Ignacio had a golden childhood, brought up on a farm by humble peasant folk whom he believed to be his parents.

Estela Carlotto, the public face of the Grandmothers was familiar to him from TV. She was a loved and respected national treasure. She had matched so many grandchildren with their original families. But it was well known that she had never been able to trace her own grandson although she had been looking for 36 years. People asked her, ''When is it going to be your turn?''

The story was well known in Argentina. Estela had been a 47 year old teacher when her long haired 'strikingly beautiful' daughter Laura, a 22 year old political activist was picked up by a death squad in the street.

She was taken to 'La Cacha', a secret detention centre. Here her 26 year old bofriend was killed in front of her. Laura was three months pregnant so she was not immediately killed.

It is believed that she gave birth in handcuffs, and was allowed only five hours with her son. Her captors staged an armed confrontation so it would look as if she died while attempting to resist their lawful authority.

Laura's body was returned to Estela with bullet wounds in the abdomen and her face smashed in with a rifle butt. Ignacio and his wife would see Estela on TV. His wife would say how she felt for her. Estela said that when she entered her eighties, 'I prayed that God would not let me die until I had found my grandson.'

It was only in 2014 that Ignacio even found out that he was adopted. He heard it from a family friend who did not add that his real parents were two of the disappeared. But,statitically, it was always a probablity.

So he had a blood test, and was knocked for six to find out that it was he who was Estela's elusive grandson. His adoptive parents faced a criminal investigation, but he wants to believe that they were innocent people, duped by the generals.

Last edited by marianneh on Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: jorgenina Reply with quote

The day that Estela announced that she had found her long lost grandson was Jorgelina Molina Planas' 41st birthday. Six days later, struggling with her emotions, Jorgelina made a pilgrimage to the church in Catamarca, where 40 years earlier, her father was shot dead in the Capilla del Rosario massacre.

Jose Maria Molina was not named as father on his daughter's birth certificate. The section for father's name was left blank to protect her mother Cristina Isabel Planas, an architectural student. Jose was in the ESP, the People's Revolutionary Army.

A year after the massacre, Jose's brother Jorge was also murdered by the state. Their mother Ana Molina sought political asylum in Sweden with her one surviving son.

Ana heard that Cristina and Jorgelina had disappeared in 1977. She devoted her life to finding them.

Jorgelina was legally adopted. Her other grandmother gave her away out of fear.

After that, she was known as Carolina Maria Sala. Her adoptive mother had wanted her to replace a daughter who had died.

She was nothing like the deceased girl, and she never had a good relationship with her adoptive mother. She got on better with her adoptive father.

Ana contacted Amnesty International and other human rights groups. But there were no DNA tests in those days. Her son wasn't even listed as father on Jorgelina's birth certifiicate.

Ana petitioned the Swedish government. In 1980, somebody who went to the same church as Jorgelina's adoptive parents, recognised her from pictures.

He contacted the Grandmothers. Ana began to write to Jorgelina.

Ana returned to Buenos Aires several times in the hope of seeing Jorgelina. She would hang around outside her school at closing time.

But as she wrote to her forlornly on her ninth birthday, ''Your adoptive parents won't let me see you. They say you belong to them.''

Jorgelina remembered her real mother Cristina as they had been together until she was nearly four. But her adoptive parents told her that Ciristina was a bad, neglectful mother and a terrorist. Later, the memory of Cristina faded altogether from her mind.

Jorgelina's adoptive parents were not part of the military or the junta, but they were extremely religious. The adoption had been arranged by the Catholic Church.

Ana twice contrived to catch sight of Jorgelina in the street, but she died before they could meet. Jorgelina was one of the first grandchildren to be identified after the fall of the military junta.

She knew the truth from 1984. She later received a suitcase of momentoes and unposted letters from Sweden.

But she did not feel able to resume her original identity. Some children broke with their adoptive parents immediately, feeling angry at the deception. Others take years to come to terms with the situation.

A deep rooted trauma surfaced in Jorgelina when she had children herself. 'My three pregnancies opened old wounds.'

When she took her three children to a pre-school group, she experienced 'inexplicable pain' at the brief separation.'It took years of therapy to realise that I was the one hurting, not them.'

It was only after her adoptive mother's death, that she gave up the name Carolina, and legally resumed her birth name of Jorgelina. She was drawing a sketch when she felt that Cristina was calling her. Jorgelina was the person she was born to be.

Her adoptive father was so offended that he never spoke to her again. She lost contact with all her adoptive family. She was upset as she believes her adoptive father to be a good man.

It is believed that some of the children of the disappeared may have been brought to Europe. Jorgelina held an art exhibition in Limoges to raise awareness in France. She is particularly committed to finding Clara Anahi, granddaughter of Chica Mariani, a founding Grandmother.

Last edited by marianneh on Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:02 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: hilario bacca Reply with quote

I resumed my birth name and ditched the identity my adoptive parents gave me. I've not known many people in the UK to do that.

For the children of the disappeared in Argentina, it is expected that they probably will want to resume their birth names, even that it is a vital part of the healing process.So, what if they don't want to?

Hilario Bacca is the joker in the pack. He was born in a death camp. His parents were murdered.

Now he says he is being persecuted by the constitutional government of Argentina. Armed police broke in his door and took away his socks and tooth brush for analysis as he was not willing to co-operate with the Grandmothers. But it was a razor that gave them the DNA they were looking for.

Hilario is indignant that they took his DNA away without his consent and, as he sees it, now want to rob him of his identity too. He is fighting for the right to keep his adoptive name.

He complains that the state now wants him to kill Hilario Bacca in order to give birth to the person it thinks he should be. And yet he has marched in solidarity with the Grandmothers.

Catalina and Victoria may take the view that he is in denial, or this is just a stage on the journey which will end with his full acceptance of his true identity.

I'd say, ''Chill out Hilario! Even if you resume your birth name, it won't make you a different person.'' His reaction is unusual - but there's always one!

Last edited by marianneh on Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:24 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: videla Reply with quote

Jorge Rafael Videla came to power in the coup of 1976. He hoped to make windows into hearts and rule his people's minds.

Howard Zinn said, 'If those in charge of our society - politicians, corporate executives and owners of press and television - can dominate our ideas, they will be secure in their power. They will not need soldiers controlling our streets. We will control ourelves.'

But Videla never quite managed this. He had to keep armed guards on the street. He defined his enemies so broadly that he saw them everywhere. Videla said, ''A terrorist is not just someone with a gun or a bomb, but also someone who spreads ideas that are contrary to Western and Christian values.''

A slogan often seen under Videla's rule was a play on words that would not be easy to translate. It undermined the concept of human rights.

It was 'Los argentinos somos derechos y humanos', We Argentinians are human and righteous.'

He had much to say about Catholic morality. After the fall of the junta, he was tried for his crimes in office, then pardoned by a later president. The pardon was then overturned.

Sentencing him for human rights abuses, Judge Maria Elba Martinez said that he was a 'manifestation of terrorism.' In 2012 Videla finally faced trial for specific charges related to the systemic stealing of babies. He was convicted, and sentenced to fifty years in prison.

Less than a year later, he died. Apparently, he died of injuries sustained when falling over in a prison shower.

Last edited by marianneh on Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:26 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: but still no closure Reply with quote

At trial, Videla admitted some babies had been stolen and deprived of their identities, but denied that it was systematic. A relative said the families were satisfied with the verdict.

They had never hated anyone. It was not about revenge. It was justice.At least two doctors and one midwife have also been convicted of their part in delivering babies in detention centres whom they knew would be abducted after their parents were murdered.

The truth is out in the open. But there can be no closure. The perverse torture endured by the Grandmothers is still with them. The disappeared numbered some 30, 000 people.

That does not mean that there are thousands of children unaccounted for. Only a small fraction of the disappeared were pregnant women.

The children of the disappeared number only 500 in round numbers. But so difficult has been the Grandmothers' task that even now, less than half have been traced. The children of the disppeared are only in their 30s or very early 40s now. The story is still a living reality.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 225

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Faye Dunaway in a movie as Evita Peron


Liberty - Equality - Fraternity : Aux armes, Citoyens !

War is Politics by other Methods - General von Clausewitz
Politics is War by other Methods - Some guy on the Internet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: now God stand up.. Reply with quote

I have just watched the first part of the movie. Poor old Evita! God didn't stand up for bastards when she was a child! I don't think you can ever really get over the bitterness of an experience like this.

And what is happening later when she is in the train? Is the guy forcing himself on her? She doesn't look very happy but she's doing nothing to stop him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1935

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: what kind of goddess? Reply with quote

We know that Juan Peron was compromised, an apparent scocialist who became something of a fascist. But I've now watched Moritz's second Evita video and I recommend it. I still think that she was on the side of the angels or at least behaved as if she was.

This is presumably not what Tim Rice thinks, as can be seen from the cynicism of the song which David Essex sang so well. I used to think the better known version was even more cynical. As a child I heard the line: 'Don't cry for me Argentina; the truth is I never left you' as 'Don't cry for me Argentina; the truth is I never loved you.'

It's interesting that the macho army couldn't stand the thought of a woman as vice president, but the people were happy to cast her as a saint, and although the Vatican would not agree to make her a Catholic martyr, masses are still held in the name of Santa Evita.

So was she a bit of a crook? Who cares? Rather a Robin Hood figure who steals from the rich to give to the poor instead of stealing from the poor to give to the rich as most politicians do.

So what about her alleged penchant for revenge? My feeling is that a little moderate revenge is OK, as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

The trouble is, that this takes no account of the law of unintended consequences. Some say that revenge is a dish best eaten with two spoons, but I wouldn't go that far.

What was she feeling vengeful about? About life long slights on her 'illegitimacy' and allegations that she had slept her way to the top.

I get a little annoyed that she was seen as a whore for being seduced by, or seducing her first influential Svengali figure when she was 15. Unless she was exceptionally mature for her age, is it the fifteen year old who carries the responsibility?

I'm all for tolerating Romeo and Juliet relationships but it looks as if this guy was old enough to know better. In the UK today, he'd be on the Sex Offenders Register.

It's not just the Society of Beneficient Ladies who snubbed Evita for being a whore or a bastard or both, but also the British Royal Family who would not even allow divorcees at Ascot at this time. Although there is no specific law agaisnt it, you can't imagine a British prince or princess marrying a person born out of wedlock.

I had no idea Evita was only 33 when she died although it ought to have been obvious from the dates given for her life on Wikipedia. How tragic! She had cancer of the uterus, an organ you can well live without, but put off consulting a doctor until it was too late.

David Essex sang, ''You let down your people Evita; you were supposed to have been immortal.' But for them, she is one of the immortals.

Last edited by marianneh on Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:57 pm; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Y Repwblic Forum Index -> Seiat Gwragedd - Women's Forum All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 5 of 8

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

© 2007-2008 Informe.com. Get Free Forum Hosting
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
PurplePearl_C 1.02 Theme was programmed by DEVPPL JavaScript Forum
Images were made by DEVPPL Flash Games