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Homage to Catalonia
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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:30 pm    Post subject: address Reply with quote

The BBC has announced that the president of Catalonia is just about to make an announcement. It might be that he will be calling new elections. They could either give him support for independence, or alternatively, a way to withdraw gracefully.

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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: mousetrap? Reply with quote

Oh no! The Catalan president has cancelled his speech. It looks as if he wants to draw back from the brink.

But separatists are not satisfied. They are gathering outside his house, shouting, ''Traitor!'' He's in a trap now. Both sides think he's a traitor.

As it is impossible to placate Spain anyway, and it's going to impose direct rule - or try to - come what may, he might as well stick to his guns.

The only excuse for backing down is to avoid bloodshed. La Passioniara said, ''I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.'' Jeremy Stangroom and Ophelia Benson thought this an extraordinary statement from a Stalinist, but conceded that it made sense even if the person who said it, didn't know what it meant.

The only caveat is that you have no right to force others to die on their feet rather than live on their knees.

But the president has underestimated his people. They still have stomach for this fight.

And if Spain imposes direct rule, and they submit to that, they won't even be living on their knees. They'll be living on their bellies.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: mikko karna Reply with quote

Mikko Karna, the northernmost MP in Finnish Lapland, has tweeted that if Catalonia declares unilateral independence on Friday, he will do his best to get it recognised by Finland. As he says, 'Catalonia has a right to decide.'

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marianneh



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: carles puigdemont Reply with quote

It looks as if Carles Puigdemont will neither call snap elections nor pulll back from the brink after all. He says the EU must step in.

But so far, the EU has been worse than useless. I thought it aspired to be a Europe of the regions but it doesn't look much like it at the moment. The EU's attitude is that a country can ony be considered a legitimately independent state if it was already independent when the EU came into being, or at least if it achieved independence before acceding to the EU.

This is entirely invidious, and can't be considered just. It is laughably inadequate as a philosophical base for action or inaction.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:21 am    Post subject: bad ETA Reply with quote

I don't have fond thoughts about all independence movements, even in the Iberian peninsual. Nationalism is as nationalism does.

ETA, the Basque separatist movement, was vile. I remember that in the 90s, it took a young politician - he was 29 and had just become engaged - hostage. They threatened the Spanish government that if it didn't comply with certain impossible demands by a certain time of day on a certain named day, they would shoot him in the head. What's more, they did it!

Thank goodness, ETA renounced violence in 2011. It looks as if the standoff between Catalonia and the Spanish government will lead to violence today, but it will be the Spanish state who will be dishing it out.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject: rajoy Reply with quote

The Spanish prime minister is going for the nuclear option this morning. He has asked his parliament for powers to close down Catalonia's self governing powers, and sack Puigdemont and all his cabinet. I don't think we know if the cortes in Madrid has agreed yet.

Had Catalonia and other nationalities within Spain's borders been granted a right to national self determination, and they had just gone about it in an unconstitutional way, there might be a real if pedantic objection to that. Rajoy might be expected to say, ''Go back, and do it properly!''

But this is not what has happened. In no circumstances, will Spain grant its constituent nationalities a right to choose independence. And this is tyranny.

If you doubt this, just listen to the language Rajoy and even King Felipe have used about disloyalty and disobedience. What century do they think they are living in? Someone should tell them that they have no divine right to rule people who do not consent to their inferior status.
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dai



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear - the shit will hit the fans of Democracy now because they will see what happens to minorities at the hands of The Democrats who serve The Aristocrats : this is what sparked off The Spanish Civil War when ordinary people challenged the might of those who ruled them - those who rallied round a dictator to defend their interests. I know that in modern Spain the Constitution theoretically defends the rights of minorities but the economic structure is still Aristocratic not Democratic and the wealthy will defend their wealth. Human Rights will count for nothing : The Rule of Law is above all supported by custom and in The Constitution in Spain it is but a recent innovation ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116

Catalans declare independence as Madrid imposes direct rule


The Catalan regional parliament has voted to declare independence from Spain, while the Spanish parliament has approved direct rule over the region. ... Catalan MPs backed the motion 70-10 in a ballot boycotted by the opposition. ... Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy had told senators direct rule was needed to return "law, democracy and stability" to Catalonia. ...
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: mariano Reply with quote

In the nineteenth century, 'democracy' was a word with largely negative asociations. It had connotations of anarchy and mob rule.

It 's now a positive sounding word. Politicians often use it as a sentence filler even when it doesn't make sense. Thus, Margaret Thatcher spoke angrily about the people who got out on the streets and voted with their feet against what she called the 'democratic poll tax.'

There was nothing democratic about the poll tax. The people didn't want it. It was they who exercised direct democracy, and overthrew it.

Now Mariano Rajoy says he is invading Catalonia with force to restore law, stability and what he is pleased to call democracy. This is bullshit. He is opposing the democratically expressed will of the people. He is violently opposing democracy.

You could read some deep psychological significance into his perverse choice of language. But my opinion is that it is just meaningless verbiage.

He had to say something. He opened his mouth and this is what came out. I wouldn't read anything into it.


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dai



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an example of what I mean that " Democracy " is merely a shiboleth used to manipulate people - in much the same way that the word " God " or " Christian " or indeed " Atheist " and " Quaker " get used : first they get you to agree to subscribe to the word and then they claim that you must therefore agree with everything else which they say ... In Catalonia people are talking about getting their " republic " and I reckon that those selling the idea to them or rather who are riding this wave and claiming to be " Republicans " will cheat them in exactly the same way. What was that poem about The Vicar who just blew with the prevailing wind in order to secure his source of income - first of all a supposedly devout Catholic then an ardent Protestant then Catholic then Protestant - each time fleecing his congregation and fining them for not subscribing to his changed profession. This is why in " The Model " we hope to use numbers to analyse politics and expose political claims to objective evaluation and scrutiny.

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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: no tyrants wanted here - we will be free Reply with quote

Ahead of the despotic sanction from Rajoy, the cortes in Barcelona voted for independence today. As camera crews shuffled in the parliament chamber, a whispered consultation took place. Then the speaker, a woman with a solemn demeanour, declared that parliament had voted for independence by 70 votes to 10, with two abstentions.

The largest opposition party abstained from the vote en masse. I don't think it was a boycott. They were prepared to go along with the decision whatever it was.

Politicians including the president applauded. The members rose and sang the national anthem, which was taken up by people in the street.The crowd outside cheered and jubilated. It was good to see the beaming faces. For a while, I felt so happy.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: bray Reply with quote

You're thinking of the Vicar of Bray, Dai.
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dai



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes - the poem of the film of the soundtrack of the history of....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6SIvnurl0 - The Vicar of Bray - Stanley Holloway - 1937

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6HGqSAFAoHM - The Vicar of Bray (1937)(rare movie)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vicar_of_Bray_(song)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vicar_of_Bray

The Vicar of Bray is a satirical description of an individual fundamentally changing his principles to remain in ecclesiastical office as external requirements change around him. The religious upheavals in England from 1533 to 1559 (and then from 1633 to 1715) made it impossible for any devout clergyman to comply with all the successive requirements of the established church. The original figure was the vicar Simon Aleyn, although clerics who faced vicissitudes resulted in revised versions of the story.

A satirical 18th-century song, "The Vicar of Bray", recounts the career of a vicar of Bray, Berkshire, towards the end of this period and his contortions of principle in order to retain his ecclesiastic office despite the changes through the course of several monarchs from Charles II to George I. A comic opera covers a later period in 18th-century history, while a film set in Bray, County Wicklow, in Ireland, covers Charles I, the English Civil War, the Commonwealth of England, The Protectorate, and restoration of Charles II.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: s Reply with quote

Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland tweets that 'we respect this decision. Catalonia has a right to decide.'

I'm sorry to say the USA has refused to recognise Catalonia as a sovereign state. Perhaps someone can explain why the Continental Congress had the right to declare independence in 1776, and in what way Catalonia is different.

Some po faced journalist in the Telegraph has just moaned that this is a bitter day for Catalonia and for Spain. For Spain, maybe.

I hope it is not a bitter day for Catalonia and never will be considered one. I hope this date will be celebrated each year as the Fourth of July is celebrated in the USA.

But if Spain lets loose the dogs of war, what will happen them? I hope to see you in the Hayes tomorrow to celebrate sovereignty in Catalonia and to hope for peace.


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dai



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Democrats in Spain's determination today to coerce The People in Catalonia into consenting to The Social Contract of The State in Spain is exactly the same issue that I am protesting about in " Declining Democracy by Refusing Registration " where I will not subscribe my name to the non-political system of The United Kingdom because that is like having to kiss the sole of The Democrats' jackboot whilst they stamp on my face. Why on earth should I sign my name to my own destruction ? The Social Contract IS a contract and if our names are taken against our will then it is invalid : watch what will happen in Catalonia when they start to coerce people to submit to their rule - nothing much at first besides a few protests but gradually it will tear apart the whole of The People in Spain from The Government in Spain because whilst those effected may not be Catalan they will no longer able to trust The Democrats in Spain not to coerce them on behalf of The Aristocrats in Spain whom they actually serve. True it may not be imprisonment and massacres at first but that is where coercion will lead to : hence Democracy is not political - it is yet another form of Ultraism and the second step towards Monocracy of which Aristocracy is the third.

( re-posted to " Declining Democracy by Refusing Registration " )

http://repwblic.informe.com/viewtopic.php?p=6002#6002
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dai



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>sigh< predictable - includes a useful summary of events

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41783289

Catalonia independence: Rajoy dissolves Catalan parliament

... Mr Rajoy also announced the sacking of the Catalan police chief ... Spanish prosecutors say they will file charges of "rebellion" against Mr Puigdemont next week.... the government of Spain is taking the necessary measures to return to legality." ...

[ OK : selected for polemical purposes but not from any radical news source ]


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:03 pm    Post subject: did Reply with quote

I often think Dai is in favour of democracy really. What he objects to is politicians claiming to act democratically when they are doing something quite different.

For instance, before the referendum, persons acting for the Spanish state tried to seize the ballot boxes which the Catalan government had hidden in the expectation that this was going to happen. Rajoy steals ballot boxes and calls it democracy!

In this country, the government starves cripples on false pretences, and call it justice. In Roman times, 'we made a wilderness and called it peace.' During the Vietnam War, American GIs razed villages to the ground and called it pacification.

It was ever thus. It ever will be thus. It is called lying. By and large, the rulers of the world are a pretty nasty bunch of people. They always have been, and they always will be.

I understand why Dai wants to withdraw himself from the whole corrupt business. But I don't agree with not voting or registering to vote, as it is making himself even more helplesss than he was before.

The government doesn't care if he recognises its legitimacy or not. He's just literally disenfranchising himself. Now they have him where they want him.

The EU will not recognise Catalonia as a sovereign state. Neither will the fascist government of Theresa May. It's a disgrace, and one of the reasons for it is that it shows they despise democracy.

I know I can't convince him but to my mind, if Dai refuses to vote, he is making himself as politically helpless as a corpse on a dissecting table.

If you're going to take an over 'pure' attitude to political life - I can't dirty myself with the corrupt business - you're not going to achieve anything. We have to deal with reality as it is, not how it should be.


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dai



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing

I voted all of my adult life in every election - Socialist or Communist if they put up a decent candidate although I am best pegged as an Anarchist of a Kropotkinite sort who gradually swung through Anarcho-Legalism into Democratic Republicanism then Republican Democracy into Pure Republicanism - which welded together my political beliefs with my religious beliefs - but Personal Construct Psychology and Logotherapy is an important part of how I understand any sort of belief system - hence I think that what sets Republicanisms apart from other kinds of politics is that they are Meta-Ideologies and ...

... Look basically I just make it up as I go along but I am most serious about rejecting Democracy in favour of Nomocracy - and Marianne you would really like Nomocracy if only I could explain it to you properly ... explain it to anyone actually : it is like Democracy but it is better i.e. it is like Quakerism and although I know that you think that Quakerism's methods are weird - and I admit that they too have problems - Quakerism is pretty harmless ... I know I know - but Richard Nixon was not using Quaker methods and ... Look : politics is not about voting - OK ?

Mmm - try thinking of it this way : if Daf was involved in this argument - or any argument with me - he would vote against me even if he also disagreed with you and you would " win " the debate and if Daf were in control of some kind of means of coercion like The State he would make me abide by your opinion. If it is just me and you the vote would be 1-1 and you are far too nice to coerce me anyway. But if we continued to argue and you persuaded me then voting would be irrelevant as would be The State - I would volunteer to abide by that point of view because I now agreed with it. This is Pure Politics - no coercion - and Nomocracy is about preventing the use of coercion by one or many persons on another or a few by vesting in The State the use of coercion to stop coercive politics e.g. it would prevent The People in Spain coercing The People in Catalonia by asserting their right to self-determination.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Leanne Wood Reply with quote

Leanne Wood has congratulated Catalonia on gaining independence 'by peaceful and democratic means.' She has urged the Welsh Assembly to recognise the independence of Catalonia.
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dai



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sleepless again & woke to hear criticism of what I advocate from the point of view of the debate over " African Democracy " which is a form of Nomocracy claimed to be better than Democracy which is seen as a colonial European imposition. Claim is that " village democracy " as practised with a tribal chief as The Nomocrat leads not to concensus but to a one-party state at the larger scale - which is much the same criticism which Dafydd makes of me as a " Salfistic Platonist."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cstyh1

Is Democracy Working For Africa ? - Newshour Extra

Kenya's disputed presidential election has plunged the country into crisis and brought the legitimacy of the whole democratic process there into question. So on this week's Newshour Extra we take a look across Sub-Saharan Africa, and ask whether democracy is the best system of government for the continent; and if so, are there uniquely African models of the democratic process. Join Owen Bennett Jones and his guests as they discuss ethnic division, democracy and autocracy in Africa.
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dai



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41788898

Catalan ex-leader Carles Puigdemont vows to resist takeover

Sacked Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has called for "democratic opposition" to direct rule from Madrid. ... He condemned the suspension of Catalonia's autonomy and promised to continue to "work to build a free country". ... He made the call in a pre-recorded TV address to Catalans broadcast on Saturday afternoon. ... The Spanish government has stripped Catalonia of its autonomy and taken charge of its government. ... The measures came early on Saturday after the Catalan parliament voted to declare independence the previous day.
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