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marianneh



Joined: 30 May 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:58 am    Post subject: When two tribes go to war Reply with quote

When Elaine Morgan wrote 'The Descent of Woman', it was believed that all animals other than humans had a mechanism that prevented their aggressing against members of their own species. It was clear that humans did not have this.

Most adults could well remember the Second World War, and many could remember the First War. People would agonise about what went wrong in human evolution. Why was it that 'only man is vile'?

Elaine Morgan discussed this in a chapter called, 'Aggression - the Brake that Failed.' When 'The Descent of Woman' was reissued in 1987, this chapter was left out.

Elaine Morgan said she no longer believed that humans were unique in this respect since reading about chimpanzee mothers kidnapping and eating each others' babies.

If we are full of original sin, so are chimps. 'Murder comes naturally to chimps.'

Chimps deploy great cunning in hunting smaller primates such as lightweight tailed monkeys. Three bands of chimpanzees will advance on a monkey from different directions. The poor monkey will have no escape route.

And it is all premeditated! Chimps don't have a concept of 'honour among primates.' They don't think, ''Oh we shouldn't eat monkeys. They may be primitive and undersized with tails, but they are so much like us! They are our cousins.'

Just as humans in war will delude themselves that their opponents are subhuman, it is likely that chimps see other chimpanzee communities as subchimps.

A terrible war raged in the Gombe Stream National Park between two chimp communities between 22 January 1974 and 5 June 1978. The Gombe Chimpanzee War ended in a decisive victory for the Kasakela chimps.

Bonobos are thought to be peaceful. They have a matriarchy in the sense that the females fill the important roles of diplomats and organisers, but the males are not oppressed.

Bonobos will often offer sex to defuse a tense situation. This is no big sacrifice as they are very fond of recreational sex anyway. To resolve a dispute, they will throw a wild sex party.

Recent research indicates that we could be just as closely related to bonobos as to chimps. I said solemnly to Dafydd, ''If chimps had nuclear weapons, they'd use them!''

Dafydd replied, ''If bonobos had nuclear weapons, they'd shag them!''

A psychology site tells us that chimps are typically socially antagonistic, competitive, callous, manipulative and self centred. Bonobos are shy , dependent, loving, clingy and co-operative.

Our more distant cousins, orang utans are apparently schizoid, cautious, independent, withdrawn, aloof and distant. The psychologists don't seem to have analysed any gorillas.

Humans can have any of the above traits. But it would be good if we could subdue the chimp in our psyches. If only we could learn to emulate our cuddly bonobo cousins!


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dai



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... Sorry - if your comment above obliquely refers to my post before it ... in reparation I thought that I would find something about Evolution and Matriarchy for you ... well I failed - but I have found these collections of videos labeled " Matriarchy " -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pOlqCn8OPU&list=PLD925EC6F0C083342

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbzG0n3shTM&list=PLvaydMLxSg8e3yPxwB6F2zVApLyIhp5Vo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBg20mzqvZI - The Matriarchal Society of Sardinia
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:55 pm    Post subject: the myth of the myth of the vaginal orgasm Reply with quote

It's so long since I've learnt French, I didn't find the video on the matriarchy of Sardinia too easy to understand even though it was fairly straightforward. It would be piquant to think that matriarchy has broken out in Sardinia and, as I've heard, in the Basque country.

We also hear that some Natvie American societies were matriarchies, and others, in Meso and South America, had great sexual equality. This goes for the Inca, Maya and Aztecs, and also tribes in Brazilian rain forests. The Iroquois may or may not have had a matriarchy..

But we've also read, in 'Centenniel' for instance, that some Plains Indians, stripped elderly widows of all their possessions, including their wigwams and left them to die of exposure, and that other nations humiliated women who had transgressed social norms by slitting their noses or cutting them off.

Are these allleged matriarchies survivors of a former universal pattern? Or have these societies gone out on a limb? Has matriarchy just broken out like chicken pox? Does it really exist anywhere? Are we just imagining it?

We'd have to accept that patriarchy is pretty well entrenched in most of the world. It's only in the last century or so that it's been convincingly challenged.

I'm relaxed about the concept of an ancient matriarchy. It may have existed or it may not have done. I would be happier with egalitarianism than either matriarchy or patriarchy.

But even if I wanted to believe in something, I would accept that reality is indifferent to what I want to think. Some anti-feminist trolls dismiss matriarchy because they don't want to accept it.

I will humbly admit that feminists sometimes have the same weakness, dismissing something because it conflicts with what they want to believe. The vaginal orgasm is a case in point.

In her chapter on orgasm in 'The Descent of Woman', Elaine Morgan mentioned a feminist tract by one Anne Koedt. It was called 'The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm.'

According to Koedt, the vaginal orgasm does not and cannot occur. Its existence was touted by lecherous men in order to persuade women not only to have vanilla sex with them but to 'make out that they enjoy it no end, and to say 'Thank you' nicely afterwards.'

Confusingly, a counterblast came out called, 'The Myth of the Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm.' In the early 80s, we heard of the G spot.

I sometimes look at articles by the feminist writer, Joan Smith, although I'm beginning to find her style rather uninspiring. I was a bit surprised that she is a fierce opponent of acceptance of the vaginal orgasm.

In 2010, research was published indicating that we should stop looking for the the G spot because it doesn't exist. Joan Smith thought the G spot story a wicked plot.

Women already have a pleasure button, the clitoris. She thought that G spot propaganda was being put around to minimize the cruelty of FGM.

She also let rip about how Sigmund Freud had made women feel bad and inadequate by telling them they were not mature and feminine if they could not have a vaginal orgasm.

I was very surprised to hear that the G spot had been written off in 2010. I have to assume that researchers weren't looking hard enough for it.

I was totally convinced of the existence of vaginal orgasms, by then for the simple reason that I'd been enjoying them regularly since 2000! I can't just have been imagining I was having an orgasm.

It is not like someone who swears by homeopathy because they don't understand the placebo effect or that they might have got better on their own.

There are a variety of other erogenous zones such as the tailbone, anus, nipples and ear lobes. They work for some of us if not for everyone.

Science is often slow to accept new concepts. Some researchers once refused to accept the word of women who told them they could have multiple orgasms.

It may be that the G spot has made a come back in the literature since 2010. And this does not represent an agenda to mutilate little girls or to make women feel inadequate. Sometimes, people don't have an axe to grind.

Freud obviously noticed that women who claimed to have vaginal orgasms were usually over 30. He put this down to emotional maturity.

Wisdom teeth are so called because you can be expected to have some wisdom by the time they come through. But the connection with wisdom is incidental. You can be as daft as a brush and still have wisdom teeth.

And it is the same with vaginal orgasms. Freud was observing a real phenomenon, but he was mistaken in thinking it had anything to do with emotional maturity.

It is to be hoped that you will have acquired some maturity by the time you are 30. But if you haven't, it's not going to have any effect on your ability to experience vaginal orgasms.

I have to assume that neither Smith nor Koedt has ever had a vaginal orgasm - at least not yet. This doesn't give them the right to speak for all of us.

Joan Smith says the clitoris is perfectly adequate. For some of us, it isn't. It is often too sensitive and too small or at least too deeply set. It is sometimes possible to cure this with testosterone based cream if a doctor agrees that 'you don't have a man in your boat.'

But why bother, if you can have vaginal orgasms at will? Why can only about a third of women achieve this? I'm quite convinced by Elaine Morgan's hypothesis that this is one of the 'scars of evolution.

It's also now fashionable to say that the clitoris is a much larger organ than used to be thought. It extends inside and winds its way round the vagina. So a vaginal orgasm could be an indirect clitoral orgasm after all.

This could give succour to young girls whose external organs are elusive or bordering on invisible. Maybe they have innies, and will have all the more powerful vaginal orgasms in later life. As Milton said, everything comes to those who wait.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:19 pm    Post subject: hooked Reply with quote

The media critic Gillian Reynolds says she is 'hooked' by David Attenborough's fascinating elucidation of the shoreline ape hypothesis. I'm glad someone enjoyed it.

A site called IBtimes, on the other hand, scoffed condescendingly, ''Sorry, David Attenborough;we didn't evolve from aquatic apes, and here's why.''

I'm not unduly bothered. I know from experience that science was wrong about the G spot in 2010. We know that when continental drift was first expounded, it was received like 'a third rate act in the music hall'. In the early twentieth century, it was dismissed as 'absolute rot.'

Lord Kelvin after whom the kelvin is named, did not think humans could have evolved from other animals as he did not believe the earth was old enough to allow it. There was once strife between the followers of Darwin and those of Mendel, but they finally came to the synthesis we see today.

All the same, I don't especially want to read the arguments of IBtimes in detail in case they wind me up. Perhaps Dai or Dafydd would like to review them.


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Moritz



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG, a site on tha interwebs is publishing Bull-sheeyit???
Surely that has never happened before? Shocked Shocked Shocked
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:07 pm    Post subject: Kill the Cagots - says the Daily Mail Reply with quote

Certain delightful French folk songs incite massacres of the Cagots. We've put all that behind us, haven't we?

Well, no. The Daily Mail tells us that paedophiles are more likely to have funny ears which are attached to their cheeks, to be short, left handed and to have physical deformities. It must be true because I read it in the Daily Mail.

In real life, a survivor of a concentration camp said that the psychopathic commandant Amon Goeth was handsome and tall and had an angelic expression, adding in puzzlement, ''How can that be?''

A rapist was in court. The plaintiff's mother was in the public gallery. She exclaimed that she could hardly believe this was he. He looked so ordinary. Her daughter said, ''Did you expect him to have horns and a tail?''

People who look 'strange' rather than those who are a danger to the public, are most likely to be picked on and seen as a menace. This is a distraction. The Daily Mail is barking up the wrong tree as usual.

Of course an offender may be left handed or have his ears glued - as it were- to his cheeks. People decide to read significance into this. If he was right handed, it would be seen as of no significance. Most offenders are right handed because most of the population are.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:00 pm    Post subject: count Reply with quote

It occurs to me that the stick with 29 notches on 'The Ascent of Man' might have been a lunar calendar after all. Ancient people sometimes counted inclusively. This may have been because they had no concept of zero.

So Jesus lay for three days in the bowels of the earth, from Friday to Sunday. We would say it was two days.

Even in Welsh, we say 'pythefnos' ie fifteen nights for fortnight and 'wythnos' ie eight nights for week.

Maybe it comes naturally to children to count inclusively. My son Byron - an exceptionally bright child - counted the square he was already on in Ludo as one. His brother said, ''No, Byron, it's zero one two three.''

But it's still more likely statistically that it is a menstrual calendar.
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Moritz



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lunar calendar, menstrual calendar, much of a muchness.

They say that when we were monkeys, we were clans of 144 ish.
They say that when women live communally, their menses co-incide.
Therefore in ye olden dages menstrual and lunar calendars were the same.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:30 pm    Post subject: pig-house Reply with quote

I imagine a long house like those to be found in Borneo or maybe New Guinea. A ceremonial stick has pride of place on a central altar. The whole tribe live in this communal hut.

The stick reminds the tribe when to expect the new moon or dark moon or full moon or anti-moon, and it also reminds the female occupants of what they must stoically endure at that time for the sake of communal harmony.

Do you mean, Moritz, that the lunar month is inevitably 28 days while a full menstrual month is only 28 days on average - but if women live communally and synchronise their wombs- menstruation will line up with lunation because of something called regression to the mean?
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: McClintock Reply with quote

The study by Martha McClintock which stated that if women live together, their menses synchronise, was published in 'Nature' magazine in circa 1971, and was long believed to be a scientific fact. I accepted it myself.

If it is true, you can expect to find regression to the mean, giving 28 days. But when I thought of the days when I did live with other young fertile women in a hall of residence and then in shared houses, I don't recall it happening, although of course this is a subject on which many people are reticent.

I've been feeling jaundiced about menstruation recently. It's only days since I've produced alarming blood clots, the size of rabbits, and had to spend half an hour washing the tiled floor in a rest room in Cwmbran. God is not a woman!

There is no God, and nothing mystic or New Agey about this repugnant business. I've consulted Wikipedia. It appears that the McClintock effect has not been reproduced by later trials. At least temporarily, it has been relegated to the status of urban myth.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: Hippo Reply with quote

I recounted above the story that whales are descended from deer like creatures. This may be correct but I must add what Steve Jones has to say in an adult ladybird book on evolution which I recently bought for my son Byron's birthday.

Steve Jones remarks that hippopotami are pretty scarce in the Himalayas now but they are there in spirit. For their fossilised remains can be found there.

Apparently hippopotomi are a half way stage between land based mammals and whales. At one time, the hippo like ancestors of whales, swam in the sea with four legs as polar bears do. Whales still have some hippo like traits. They communicate with squeaks.

Elaine Morgan suggested in 1972 that we were not the only linguists on the planet, citing dolphins as possibly having speech.

She was right. Scientists are now about to embark on decoding Dolphinese.


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marianneh



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: boddi Reply with quote

Tourists cruising in tropical zones today, can often see local boys diving for coins in submerged wrecks. They look like semi aquatic mammals even now.

But for many centuries in some cultures, swimming was almost entirely, a lost skill. Some rabbis who contributed to the Talmud, thought a father had a responsibility to teach his son to swim. This was a minority view.

In the fifteenth century in England, Warwick the Kingmaker was unusual in arranging swimming lessons for the boys sent to be taught knightly skills in his household.

Sailors, in the old days, were the least likely to learn to swim. Far from seeing it as essential to their career, they thought it disastrous.

In the days of sailing ships, when ships couldn't be turned easily, and there were no life boats or life jackets either, they didn't see the point.

They thought that if they fell overboard with no land anywhere near, it was best to accept their fate and drown quickly. If they swam and swam and became exhausted, it would just prolong the agony.

This subject came up when we were discussing Barti Ddu the pirate, in our Welsh reading class. To my surprise, Gareth the tutor mentioned someone he knew, now dead, who had been in the Merchant Navy. He had been torpedoed five times, during the Second World War, and survived. He had never learnt to swim.


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dai



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plenty of stories on my mother's side about sailors : I think that the point is still the case in northern seas that swimming is of little point because you are going to freeze to death - but staying afloat is perhaps a different matter because (a) your core body temperature requires energy which swimming would expend (b) swimming against the power in the waves is a reckless waste of energy (c) moving your position away from where you were is suicidal : if the alarm is called and the ship is turned back to find you then the crew will be trying to retrace their course by using the wake which remains visible for a while and the person overboard will drift along with it (d) waving your arms around and loudly protesting your distress is likely to attract vicious man- and woman- and child-eating predators like The Democrats in Wales and The World ...

... I notice that you have mentioned menstruation and female genitalia a lot recently in different posts : is a bloody frequent female menstruation part of The Aquatic Ape theory ? ... i.e. there would not be such a mess to clean up if we were constantly immersed in water ? ... Does the theory explain whether our bodies were shaped by fresh or saline water ? ... Given their diverse designs and proportions do you think that the hymen and labia evolved to be a waterproof seal ? ... Perhaps this is two intimate a subject ?
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: oesstrus Reply with quote

I don't think so. Chimps do this as well. Elaine Morgan said they sometimes notice the mess, and wipe it away with leaves. Most female mammals make a bit of a mess when they are most fertile rather than when an egg is shed.

It could be worse. I could be discussing dysentery or nasal effluvia.
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dai



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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We ought to be discussing the shit which The Democrats in Wales are spouting - they are not dear creatures to me and not even descended from dear creatures - the trouble in Wales of course being that we are not evolving but devolving.... Incidently in rereading your posts above it occurs to me that with our biology women would not evolve to synchronise their menses because that would mean them all simultaneously competing to proclaim that theirs was the biggest headache ... Seriously though - assuming women want to be pregnant - they would not all want to be competing for the hunkiest handsomost simultaneously etc

Are you taking an interest in these elections.? Do you intend to vote as usual or are you going to choose to switch.? It is a pain to have Jeremy Corbyn on the card yet have to refuse to participate due to that damned Electoral Registration & Administration Act 2013.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:43 pm    Post subject: yea Reply with quote

I voted for Corbyn to be leader when the ability to vote for the Labour leader was thrown open to the public. I was politely interrogated on the phone and said all the right things. My vote was allowed.

But as people think he's ineffectual, it's not likely he can win GE 2017. I know I can't influence you , but if I could I would urge you not to bother about registrarion rules. We just have to vote to get the Tories out.

Under the Propaganda Forum, we have discussed in what way they resemble Nazis so I needn't reiterate it here. I suppose they will win which will be devastating, but we must register a protest.

Monmouth is supposed to be a safe Conservative seat. If this is accurate, my vote will be wasted, but I must vote anyway.If you wanted most of all to reverse Brexit, your best bet would be to vote Lib Dem. They say they will have the referendum again.

Theresa May says God would have voted Brexit. She's either a total idiot or she thinks we are idiots.
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: how we are not like chimps Reply with quote

Steve Jones is not one of those theoretical biologists who want to reach out the hand of siblinghood to our furry cousins.He has no patience with those who emphasise how much we are like chimps.

He would say that just because they have x% of their DNA in common with us, that does not mean they are x% human. They are not human at all. They are chimps.

Although he is absolutley right, I was hurt to the quick by what I perceived as his dismissive tone. It was so lacking in empathy!

Steve Jones wants always to highlight what divides us, not what unites us. So what significant attributes do we have that chimps lack? What can we do that they can't?

According to Steve Jones, we can weep, we can float, we can dive and we can catch fish.

He didn't have a word to say about the aquatic ape hypothesis. But without even trying, he has provided support for it.
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dai



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do chimps do which humans also do ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CPznMbNcfO8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4XP6T1CMgBQ

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQn1-mLkIHw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2_ss1NqzjxI

Obviously otters are Republicans whereas Democrats are monkeys ... not even apes ?

DO NOT VIEW THE FOLLOWING UNLESS YOU ARE READY TO THINK ABOUT THE DANGERS IN DEMOCRACY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lvH8Z-QToc0

THE REMEDY OF COURSE IS NOMOCRACY - UNLESS WE WANT THIS TO KEEP ON HAPPENING TO US.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6JhIldn2FQ
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marianneh



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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: man's red flower Reply with quote

Walt Disney's animated cartoon, 'The Jungle Book' is about as old as I am. Younger readers can find videos from it on the net.

One of the song and dance routines is played out in a ruined temple that has been taken back by the jungle. Some apes and monkeys have an aspiration to be human or more like humans.

An insistent ape sings, ''Give me the secret of man's red fire so I can be like you.'' But Mowgli is a little boy who has been adopted by wolves.
He is cut off from human culture and has no idea how to make fire.

For a long time, the ability to make fire was just about the only remarkable trait that humans could boast and it was no more impressive than bees' ability to make honey. It does look as if we had this skill long before any of us left Africa.

Quite remarkably, authoritative texts tell us that certain isolated human communities do not have any techniques for starting a fire although they can utilise fire after a lightning strike. The people in the frame as fireless are the native Tasmanians and the Andaman Islanders.

Thanks to contact with white civilization, the native Tasmaninas are extinct or nearly so. If this is a canard, they can't answer it. The Indian government has imposed a ten mille exclusion zone round the Andaman Islands, so we're not going to find much out there either.

Somebody exclaimed in shock, ''But you're not human if you don't have fire!'' I don't agree. You are human if you have human DNA.

Kanzi is a clever individual. He can tell you he would like cherries, apples or marshmallows by using a touch pad. He can also strike a match and create fire.

But he is not human. He is a bonobo. He has 'the power of man's red flower'. I don't think that gives him human status, but I don't mean that as an insult. It's great to be a bonobo.

Chimps and bonobos can cook although this is something they have picked up from humans. They do have to be prompted to do it. They can also use keys to unlock doors.

Before Jane Goodall studied great apes in the 60s, we thought they were vegetarians. We didn't know they improvised tools. One of the Leakeys was quite disconcerted, saying we would have to redefine tools, redefine chimps or redefine man.

We've concentrated on the dark side of chimps. There are evil Nazi chimps who will shun chimps who have had a leg crippled by polio, and then turn on them and kill them. There are also cuddly and kind chimps who are supportive and helpful to disabled chimpanzees.

Chimps beckon to call other chimps over. They share out food and have a sense of fairness. Most chimps hate injustice. They hug and kiss each other to make up after a quarrel.

We know they recognise their own reflections instead of thinking they are looking at another animal. They are excellent at reading the expressions of other chimps.

The next step is to screen orang utans to determine if they too have a divine spark, morality and mind reading skills.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that if we are taking about intelligence then it boils down to successful behaviour not behaviour like human behaviour : our species provides no canonical standard.
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